Hi Inkblott, the usual procedure is for a non-Christian to ask a question concerning Christianity. And the majority of opening questions have been formulated by atheists to disparage Christianity. Very few questions are asked where the person is actually interested in becoming a disciple of Christ.
I can safely say that I fit neither profile. I am disappointed in Christianity and have recently gone though a period of rather vehemently disparaging it (the religious paradigm, not Christians themselves), however I am prepared at this time to explore my questions and concerns in a more measured fashion. (It occurs to me that the vehemence in my rhetoric may have been more of a response to my own inward state.) As I said to ephraimanesti, there is no doubt good reason for both sides to be prickly, but perhaps like very careful porcupines we might find a way to stand near to one another.
Originally Posted by Van
I am not much of a Bible student, but I do not recall where scripture records a presentation of faith to folks who do not believe in God. For example Paul made a case to non-jews based on their belief in the "unknown God." So it would seem pointless to me to share my faith with an atheist. He or she probably does not actually want to learn about Christianity, what they usually want is to demonstrate how their atheist view is superior. And so since it takes two to tango, sharing the Christian faith with an atheist is usually futile.
One of the first questions I was ever asked on CF was whether I considered myself a bible scholar. I sensed that the person asking was much more the scholar than I and had the sense to reply with a certain degree of humility. Much good recommendation of reading material came my way as a result.
I do suggest, however, re-reading Acts 17:13-31.
The early Christians regarded the Epicureans as atheists. The famous "trilemma" you may have encountered if you have done much apologetics is known by some as the Riddle of Epicurus.
I agree that it does take two to tango. I do not come here beating my breast. If I did not feel a particular viewpoint recommends itself above all others, I would not hold it. Obviously. However, I acknowledge that I do not know all things. I am willing to take any viewpoint that I may hold apart point by point and set it beside yours if you are willing to do your part. It may surprise you but I am more interested in how our viewpoints are alike. How deep do we have to dig to find that agreement? It is from that point of agreement that I like to begin questioning why and how they diverge.
Paul found that point of agreement in an engraving on an idol and in a line of poetry. Where might we find it?
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
C. G. Jung Psychology and Religion
Last edited by InkBlott; 4th August 2009 at 01:25 PM.
Reason: Edited to add content regarding Epicureans.
If you do ever look back here, know there is someone who is willing to share what they believe. Sorry that you are going through a tough time.
Thank you, CRfan. It has been a difficult year. I've lost both of my parents, my job and my cat over a 14-month period. It was the death of my father Monday of last week that convinced me I simply must leave this topic, as it did not seem worthwhile to add to my grief in any way.
You have asked a number of challenging questions. I may have to break for lunch before I begin answering them.
Originally Posted by CRfan
As far as knowing about you, it would be good to know what your view of sin and God / Jesus is. It would be good to find out if you recognize what sin is.
I actually let go of the more orthodox paradigm that I originally learned of sin and salvation in regard to Christ before I let go of the concept of God. It seemed to me that Christ preached a new way of looking at sin that allowed one to simply step outside of its sphere of influence. The story of the woman caught in adultery is a classic example. His final remark to her to go and sin no more would be odd, knowing human nature, if he did not mean something by it that transcends our normal way of seeing things. I'm not sure I entirely grok it, but it interests me.
I feel disappointed in Christ sometimes, or at the very least in his biographers. Although there is much that feels revelatory and transforming in his teachings, there are also many things that feel ordinary and even harmful (and, ironically, especially harmful in chimeric combination with his finer points). As I mentioned to Van, I have been rather vehemently angry on certain points lately, but I am willing now to step back and examine them more dispassionately.
Originally Posted by CRfan
Also, it wouldn't hurt to know what led you to believing the way you do, so that we can better know what your knowledge level is of what is in the Bible.
I have a degree from Ozark Christian College. I do not consider it a good education, so I am not what I would consider a bible scholar, but I am more than passingly acquainted with its contents.
My current atheism is the result of many years of study and contemplation. I don't know that I can easily tease out the threads as to what led me to believe the way I do. I can remember the last time I prayed, several years ago. It was, as best as I can describe it, a respectful letting go of a concept. I had, in the spirit of the first commandment, released so many idea of God as not God, that I found in the end that I must release them all.
Originally Posted by CRfan
I'd hate for you to feel chased away. Believing the best about people such as yourself is a good thing. I know people have had people who weren't open to what we believe post, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't get on here all the time, but I'd be happy to share. I know going through something traumatic is difficult, but I hope that you will be open to look for answers here. For those who believe, God is a God of comfort as well. I will pray for you now that you will come to know Jesus. Do some investigating of the Bible please. Try reading the book of John and Romans for starters. If you were a Christian, I would recommend reading the book of Psalms right now in your time of tragedy.
Sin is what separates us from God. Repentance, belief in Jesus' sacrifice for sin, and a commitment to the Lord is necessary for salvation. Also, believing in the resurrection.
I find the book of Psalms a little hair-raising in places. It is at least honest in its depiction of the gamut of human emotions and states of mind. In that sense it might be comforting in times of grief as it highlights that even our most difficult thoughts and feelings are common to our fellow human beings.
I'm experiencing a bit of an aversion to handling my bible due to an unpleasant situation a few months ago. The feel of it in my hands is too evocative. I do have it on disc though.
Originally Posted by CRfan
If you do come back on, you could either post on this thread, or a question related to anything brought up here for starters. You can even ask about bad things happening to people and why.
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
What do you need to know about me in order to share your faith?
If I can, I'll answer any questions, but I'm interested in what you feel you need to know and why.
To answer your question, I don't need to know anything about you (though I'm always interested in learning about others), nor do I always share anything about my faith in various threads around here (for various reasons). My biggest advice to you is the same I would give to even anyone who is a Christian- it's all well and good to read about Christianity on-line or in books- but it is a faith that must be lived (faith implies action). If you're truly curious, your research will lead you to literally 'come and see' what we're all about. As far as I'm concerned, it's an open invitation for anyone of any creed and none to come visit an Orthodox Church. We don't pressure anyone who visits to convert and any who are interested in converting are asked to truly consider their decision and learn about the faith for a long time before they make a commitment.
I will say that converting was the best thing that happened to me as I had completely written off Christianity. If you'd like to know more about my decision you can click on my blog here at CF.
ETA: As far as I'm concerned- you're welcome around here.
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"Why do you increase your bonds? Take hold of your life before your light grows dark and you seek help and do not find it. This life has been given to you for repentance; do not waste it in vain pursuits."~St. Isaac the Syrian
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To answer your question, I don't need to know anything about you (though I'm always interested in learning about others), nor do I always share anything about my faith in various threads around here (for various reasons). My biggest advice to you is the same I would give to even anyone who is a Christian- it's all well and good to read about Christianity on-line or in books- but it is a faith that must be lived (faith implies action). If you're truly curious, your research will lead you to literally 'come and see' what we're all about. As far as I'm concerned, it's an open invitation for anyone of any creed and none to come visit an Orthodox Church. We don't pressure anyone who visits to convert and any who are interested in converting are asked to truly consider their decision and learn about the faith for a long time before they make a commitment.
I will say that converting was the best thing that happened to me as I had completely written off Christianity. If you'd like to know more about my decision you can click on my blog here at CF.
ETA: As far as I'm concerned- you're welcome around here.
Thank you for the welcome seashale76.
I am feeling a bit like a cipher just now. Rather faceless. An open hand into which one of a thousand identical tracts can be thrust.
But I say this gently, as you have cared enough to reply and you have not implied I am perhaps a disingenuous person.
One of the things that used to attract me to Christ was the way he approached people who were the ciphers of their day, often those at risk of being shuffled aside in a seemingly faceless mob. It seems to me that he truly saw them. But I must admit, of late, that the good I once saw in Christ only leaves me wary. It would seem, and my experience goes on bearing it out, that he taught in a few stray words quite the opposite, so that to his followers such a one as I must somehow lack a human face and a human history.
I have come and I have seen and yet I myself remain essentially invisible.
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
(By the way, not all atheists are skeptics. I think you will find, if you have not already found so, that you will like those of us who are a little better. )
MY DEAR BROTHER,
i already do. i look forward to chatting with you.
Again--sorry for all the pain in your life. May it heal quickly!
A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
__________________
Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee. --Saint Ephraim the Syrian LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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I am feeling a bit like a cipher just now. Rather faceless. An open hand into which one of a thousand identical tracts can be thrust.
But I say this gently, as you have cared enough to reply and you have not implied I am perhaps a disingenuous person.
One of the things that used to attract me to Christ was the way he approached people who were the ciphers of their day, often those at risk of being shuffled aside in a seemingly faceless mob. It seems to me that he truly saw them. But I must admit, of late, that the good I once saw in Christ only leaves me wary. It would seem, and my experience goes on bearing it out, that he taught in a few stray words quite the opposite, so that to his followers such a one as I must somehow lack a human face and a human history.
I have come and I have seen and yet I myself remain essentially invisible.
I don't happen to think you're disingenuous in the least. Not to mention, I don't consider it my job to convert anyone.
Sometimes, I wonder, how much of this is the effect of the internet on faith? I'm not at all saying this is the case with you, but your post brought it to mind- and I'm making this connection for myself and my own past experiences. Whatever issues of contention I once had were only made worse on religious message boards and the isolation that is the internet.
When one speaks of invisibility and being part of a faceless mob- I take it to mean that you lacked community- and it shouldn't be that way. The Christian should truly be part of a community- and it should be tangible. We are not saved alone- and it is corporate.
I highly recommend Fr. Stephen's blog for your consideration. He covers a lot of very interesting topics (for Orthodox anyway- your mileage may vary- though I feel that even atheists with an interest in religious topics would find it worthwhile to read). He did have a post not too long ago that touched on the topic of communion with God which you may find interesting. Salvation, Prayer and Communion with God Glory to God for All Things
__________________
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Troparion - Tone 4
Commanders of the heavenly hosts, we who are unworthy beseech you, by your prayers encompass us beneath the wings of your immaterial glory, and faithfully preserve us who fall down and cry to you: “Deliver us from all harm, for you are the commanders of the powers on high!”
Holy Archangel Michael, pray to God for me.
"Why do you increase your bonds? Take hold of your life before your light grows dark and you seek help and do not find it. This life has been given to you for repentance; do not waste it in vain pursuits."~St. Isaac the Syrian
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My previous usertitle was "Non-theistic Follower of Christ." I am less enamored of Christ's teachings than I once was, so a change in title was needed.
MY BROTHER,
Might i ask which of our Lord's teachings you are "less enamored" with than previously and why?
This is, of course, a reversal of the usual atheistic pronouncements, which usually go something like, "I respect and admire what he taught but refuse to accept the possibility that he is a god."
So, can i assume that you accept Him as God but don't like what He says?
ephraim
__________________
Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee. --Saint Ephraim the Syrian LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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i already do. i look forward to chatting with you.
Again--sorry for all the pain in your life. May it heal quickly!
A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim
Thank you.
Originally Posted by ephraimanesti
MY BROTHER,
Might i ask which of our Lord's teachings you are "less enamored" with than previously and why?
This is, of course, a reversal of the usual atheistic pronouncements, which usually go something like, "I respect and admire what he taught but refuse to accept the possibility that he is a god."
So, can i assume that you accept Him as God but don't like what He says?
ephraim
Well, not exactly...
I hope I don't make "atheistic pronouncements." I like to show my reasoning. It seems to me that if I cannot or if I will not then I have no right to dump my conclusions on unsuspecting passersby as if they alone meant something.
I find that, though I once very much liked, for instance, that Jesus made of point of touching, speaking to and even asking questions of those who were the outcasts of his society, I find that I can no longer ignore that he at times seemed to be doing nothing more than reshuffling the old ingroups and outgroups. For instance, in Matthew 7, one finds him referring to certain individuals as pigs, wolves and dogs (what I have come to think of as the triune dehumanizing insults after the frequency with which I have seen them used against perceived outsiders). I simply cannot continue to separate the two aspects of his teachings any longer. The tender feelings of hope against hope formed by the former, find themselves folded into the expressions of the latter, so that the hurt from the insults becomes all the more. Love in its purest form is subsequently held hostage by, manipulated by and turned to the service of a particularly wretched despair ruled by the fear of one's fellow human being. What do we do with a Christ who prompts us to see to the log in our own eye in one breath and in nearly the next breath encourages us to think of certain others as if they were not quite human? It would have been better to have been left alone as I for one can now barely wrench any love whatsoever free.
Who will save us now?
Meh. I'm weary. I'm weary of being called a pig, a dog, a wolf, demon possessed and a fool as if I were an enemy to him. In the end, I suppose I am. I suppose I have become his enemy, when I would rather to have had him as a brother.
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
I don't happen to think you're disingenuous in the least. Not to mention, I don't consider it my job to convert anyone.
I spoke specifically to the sharing of faith. I did not want the discussion limited only to those who were bent on converting me.
Originally Posted by seashale76
Sometimes, I wonder, how much of this is the effect of the internet on faith? I'm not at all saying this is the case with you, but your post brought it to mind- and I'm making this connection for myself and my own past experiences. Whatever issues of contention I once had were only made worse on religious message boards and the isolation that is the internet.
When one speaks of invisibility and being part of a faceless mob- I take it to mean that you lacked community- and it shouldn't be that way. The Christian should truly be part of a community- and it should be tangible. We are not saved alone- and it is corporate.
I came to the internet utterly disillusioned as to the willingness of Christians to extend fellowship. I have been no more encouraged by those I encounter in real life than I have those I encounter here.
One gets the impression that to the churched, my only defining characteristic is that I do not hold to the correct propositions. If I seem receptive, they will hand me a list. If I do not accept, there is nothing more that is needful to know about me. I have stepped beyond the pale of humanity and have become as a swine to the possessors of pearls. I have become a leper whom Christ will never touch, an outsider separated forever, my final separation from those holding pearls the ultimate Christian fantasy.
It seems as though there are two Christs, one made of light and one made of darkness...
Originally Posted by seashale76
I highly recommend Fr. Stephen's blog for your consideration. He covers a lot of very interesting topics (for Orthodox anyway- your mileage may vary- though I feel that even atheists with an interest in religious topics would find it worthwhile to read). He did have a post not too long ago that touched on the topic of communion with God which you may find interesting. Salvation, Prayer and Communion with God Glory to God for All Things
Thank you.
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
I seem to be giving quite a bit of information to those who have assured me they need none.
__________________
The House of Self-Collection
If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all these projections, all and sundry, then you get an individual conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man has saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself, as he is now unable to say that they do this or that, they are wrong and they must be fought against. He lives in the “house of self-collection.”
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