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View Poll Results: Are infants and young children members of the Church ? | |
Yes
|     | 30 | 83.33% | |
No
|    | 6 | 16.67% |
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19th August 2004, 05:55 PM
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Reps: 47,869,504,486,311 (power: 47,869,504,497) | | Originally Posted by Oblio Sorta like Anabaptist limbo * Oblio flees
 You can hide behind me--I'm big enough 
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"...a vice does not lose its nature, though it becomes ever so fashionable" -John Wesley
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19th August 2004, 06:12 PM
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Reps: 33,707,381 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Lotar Could you explain this? 
Isn't the fact that we have this poll evidence that we have trouble deciding what criteria to apply to church membership, since those that apply to adults can't be applied to children in the same way? IOW, an adult is requird to make a profession of faith in order to become a church member, yet we all feel like there's something wrong with excluding a child who does not yet have this ability.
I have noticed that Western churches tend to set things up similarly to the Catholic Church, so that participation is limited until the child reaches a certain age. For example, protestant churches usually do not commune a child until they reach the age where they can make their own profession of faith. Depending on whether or not the church practices infant baptism, this would be either at their baptism or their confirmation. Catholics commune children before confirmation, but only after they have received a certain level of catechesis and are old enough to go to confession. The Orthodox, OTOH, commune infants and children. I have noticed that Lutheran and Episcopal churches are beginning to do this as well.
ISTM, those who are not given communion are thought of as not really part of the church.  |
19th August 2004, 06:17 PM
|  | Swift Eagle Justice
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__________________ .يا رب يسوع المسيح ابن اللّه الحيّ إرحمني أنا الخاطئ
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I want 7+ children. What is more foolish than to treat a gift from God as though it is a preventative disease? I AM A SICK MAN... I AM A SPITEFUL MAN. A little flesh, a little breath, and a reason to rule all - that is myself. -Marcus Aurelius To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Monkey Ninja |
19th August 2004, 06:26 PM
| | Legend
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Reps: 33,707,381 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by SLStrohkirch Really? How so
Anabaptists, like the Orthodox, do not believe that children are born guilty and bound for hell. We all die because of Adam's sin, but one is only condemned by one's own sin. We all sin, eventually, if we live long enough, but children are born innocent. This means children who die in this state of innocence have eternal life, even without baptism. I don't know exactly what the Orthodox teach about the salvation of unbaptized infants who die, but I do know that the Orthodox see sin as more like a disease than like forensic guilt. Forensic guilt arises only from one's own actions. It cannot be inherited.
The Anabaptist corollary to this is that there is no need for baptism to "remove the stain of original sin." Baptism is done when one realizes one's need to repent and decides to do it. |
19th August 2004, 06:49 PM
| | Swift Eagle Justice
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| | Join Date: 27th February 2003 Location: Southern California
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Reps: 69,090 (power: 84) | | As we see it, original sin is to be born without love for the Lord, and without the will to please Him. So, it is not so much a matter of inheriting Adam's guilt, but rather that we violate the first and greatest of all commandments, ie, love the Lord your God with all your soul, heart, and mind.
Baptism is not removing the stain of original sin, if it was, we would not have to fight our flesh nor would we become sick or die. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, a means of grace that sparks/strengthens faith. Even if the child had no sins for which forgiveness was needed, we would still baptize them in order to recieve God's grace and bring them into Christ's Church.
__________________ .يا رب يسوع المسيح ابن اللّه الحيّ إرحمني أنا الخاطئ
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I want 7+ children. What is more foolish than to treat a gift from God as though it is a preventative disease? I AM A SICK MAN... I AM A SPITEFUL MAN. A little flesh, a little breath, and a reason to rule all - that is myself. -Marcus Aurelius To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Monkey Ninja |
20th August 2004, 01:04 AM
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Well, my definition of "church" is a group of people that gather together for one purpose, and that is to praise and worship God. In Matthew 19 13-14 it says, "Then the little children were brought to Him that He might put his hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But, Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." That says it all right there. |
20th August 2004, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lotar As we see it, original sin is to be born without love for the Lord, and without the will to please Him. So, it is not so much a matter of inheriting Adam's guilt, but rather that we violate the first and greatest of all commandments, ie, love the Lord your God with all your soul, heart, and mind.
Baptism is not removing the stain of original sin, if it was, we would not have to fight our flesh nor would we become sick or die. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, a means of grace that sparks/strengthens faith. Even if the child had no sins for which forgiveness was needed, we would still baptize them in order to recieve God's grace and bring them into Christ's Church.
TOTALLY, FER SHER 
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Spalatin
In the Morning Pray
I thank you, my heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, Your dear Son, that you have kept me this night from all harm and danger; and I pray that you keep me this day also from every sin and evil, that all my doings and life may please you. For into Your Hand I commend myself, my body and soul and all things. Let your Holy angel be with me, that the evil foe may have no power over me. Amen
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20th August 2004, 05:26 PM
| | Contributor
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Reps: 3,107,876 (power: 3,119) | | Originally Posted by Lotar As we see it, original sin is to be born without love for the Lord, and without the will to please Him. So, it is not so much a matter of inheriting Adam's guilt, but rather that we violate the first and greatest of all commandments, ie, love the Lord your God with all your soul, heart, and mind.
Baptism is not removing the stain of original sin, if it was, we would not have to fight our flesh nor would we become sick or die. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, a means of grace that sparks/strengthens faith. Even if the child had no sins for which forgiveness was needed, we would still baptize them in order to recieve God's grace and bring them into Christ's Church.
But it is not baptism that saves but repentance..."Believe and be baptised" not "Baptise and may be in 10 years believe"!
__________________ "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.
The world and all its people belong to him.
For he laid the earth’s foundation on the seas
and built it on the ocean depths."
Psalm 24:1, 2
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20th August 2004, 09:14 PM
| | Swift Eagle Justice
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| | Join Date: 27th February 2003 Location: Southern California
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Reps: 69,090 (power: 84) | | Repentance saves? All this time I thought it was God's grace, now I realize it's dependant upon my works.
Unrepentance maims and destroys, but it is not repentance that saves us.
Baptism is a means of grace, it sparks faith in the child. Surely you do not propose that it is knowledge that saves us?
__________________ .يا رب يسوع المسيح ابن اللّه الحيّ إرحمني أنا الخاطئ
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I want 7+ children. What is more foolish than to treat a gift from God as though it is a preventative disease? I AM A SICK MAN... I AM A SPITEFUL MAN. A little flesh, a little breath, and a reason to rule all - that is myself. -Marcus Aurelius To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Monkey Ninja | | |
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