Are infants and children members of the Church ?

So, are you saved because you ask forgiveness, or are you saved because of grace?

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Monkey Ninja

Ymssra ....

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From the CF Dictionary:

Tradition of men: Biblical doctrine that I disagree with.

Word of God: My personal opinion.


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What we call salvation is the work of God's free and Sovereign grace. In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8 sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30).



The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.


Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.


Effectual calling is the work of God's almighty power and grace,[1] whereby (out of his free and special love to his elect, and from nothing in them moving him thereunto [2]) he doth, in his accepted time, invite and draw them to Jesus Christ, by his word and Spirit;[3] savingly enlightening their minds,[4] renewing and powerfully determining their wills,[5] so as they (although in themselves dead in sin) are hereby made willing and able freely to answer his call, and to accept and embrace the grace offered and conveyed therein.[6]

1. John 5:25; Eph. 1:18-20; II Tim. 1:8-9
2. Titus. 3:4-5; Eph. 2:4-5, 7-9; Rom. 9:11
3. II Cor. 5:20; 6:1-2; John 6:44; II Thess. 2:13-14
4. Acts 26:18; I Cor. 2:10, 12
5. Ezek. 11:19; 36:26-27; John 6:45
6. Eph. 2:5; Phil. 2:13; Deut. 30:6

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:26, NKJV)


Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit upon those who are spiritually dead (see Ephesians 2:1-10). The Spirit recreates the human heart, quickening it from spiritual death to spiritual life. Regenerate people are new creations.


Justifying faith is a saving grace,[1] wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit [2] and word of God,[3] whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition,[4] not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel,[5] but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin,[6] and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation.[7]

1. Heb. 10:39
2. II Cor. 4:13; Eph. 1:17-19
3. Rom. 10:14, 17
4. Acts 2:37; 4:12; 16:30; John 16:8-9; Rom. 5:6; Eph. 2:1
5. Eph. 1:13
6. John 1:12; Acts 10:43; 16:31
7. Phil. 3:9; Acts 15:11

Repentance unto life is a saving grace,[1] wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit [2] and word of God,[3] whereby, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger,[4] but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins,[5] and upon the apprehension of God's mercy in Christ to such as are penitent,[6] he so grieves for [7] and hates his sins,[8] as that he turns from them all to God,[9] purposing and endeavoring constantly to walk with him in all the ways of new obedience.[10]

1. II Tim. 2:25
2. Zech. 12:10
3. Acts 11:18, 20-21
4. Ezek. 18:28, 30, 32; Luke 15:17-18; Hosea 2:6-7
5. Ezek. 36:31; Isa. 30:22
6. Joel 2:12-13
7. Jer. 31:18-19
8. II Cor. 7:11
9. Acts 26:18; Ezek. 14:6; I Kings 8:47-48
10. Psa. 119:6, 59, 128; Luke 1:6; II Kings 23:25


Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it,[3] nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification;[2] but only as it is an instrument by which he receiveth and applies Christ and his righteousness.[3]

1. Gal. 3:11; Rom. 3:28
2. Rom. 4:5; 10:10
3. John 1:12; Phil. 3:9; Gal. 2:16


Justification is an act of God's free grace unto sinners,[1] in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight;[2] not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them,[3] but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them,[4] and received by faith alone.[5]

1. Rom. 3:22, 24-25; 4;5
2. II Cor. 5:19, 21; Rom. 3:22-25, 27-28
3. Titus 3:5, 7; Eph. 1:7

4. Rom. 4:6-8; 5:17-19
5. Acts 10:43; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9


Sanctification is a work of God's grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit [1] applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them,[2] renewed in their whole man after the image of God;[3] having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts,[4] and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened,[5] as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.[6]

1. Eph. 1:4; I Cor. 6:11; II Thess. 2:13
2. Rom. 6:4-6
3. Eph. 4:23-24
4. Acts 11:18; I John 3:9
5. Jude 1:20; Heb. 6:11-12; Eph. 3:16-19; Col. 1:10-11
6. Rom. 6:4; 6:14; Gal. 5:24

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John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Ed. By John T. McNeill (Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1960) I:13:1, p. 121.

This is what Anabaptists believe. They generally do not have a concept of original sin like Catholics and Calvinists. The Anabaptist view of sin is much more similar to the Orthodox view.

If true, IMO that is the best evidence that Anabaptist are not Protestant but simply wayward Orthodox

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From the CF Dictionary:

Tradition of men: Biblical doctrine that I disagree with.

Word of God: My personal opinion.


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Let's break that down. This is close to what Anabaptists believe, but not entirely. I, personally have changed my mind about some of these ideas in the last few years, but haven['t completely fit everything together again.

Me, too. This is what my Anabaptist theology has taught me.

I said they have not repented. I think we mean the same thing about this.

What do you mean they cannot be saved? Anabaptists say children and mentally disabled people who have not attained the intellectual capacity necessary for faith are saved. They are not saved by faith. We don't know how they are saved, but God saves them. In addition to the verse I quoted above from Matthew 19, there are also the following:

[bible]mark 10:13-16[/bible]

[bible]luke 18:15-17[/bible]

The problem I have is with defining faith as requiring a certain minimal intellectual capacity. I'm not sure it does. I think faith involves the whole person, so the intellect is definitely involved to the extent of the person's capacity, but intellectual capacity is not a prerequisite to faith. Therefore, the Orthodox idea of not practicing age discrimination has a lot of appeal. It recognizes this. In fact, I began to re-think my concept of faith the first time I visited an Orthodox church and saw the parents carrying their babies to the front to receive communion. I'm not done re-thinking it yet. Yet I'm uncomfortable with statements like:

Anabaptists would expand this list to include a commitment to discipleship and acceptance of the discipline of the church, including the obligations to give and receive counsel among one's brothers and sisters.

These are requirements for adult members who possess the capacity to do all these things consciously and communicate to others that they have done so. But infants and children may be faithful (perhaps even more so than their elders) without having yet fully developed these intellecutal capacites and communication skills.

It seems like all our churches have some difficulty deciding how to think of children (and also mentally disabled people) when it is impossible to apply to them the testing criteria we apply to adults. I have noticed the Orthodox seem to have an approach to the faith of children that seems to avoid these problems, and that Episcopal and Lutheran churches seem to be adopting this kind of approach more and more.

Jesus was baptized. He had nothing to repent for Yes Children, upon baptism, are members of the Church

Really? How so

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Spalatin

In the Morning Pray

I thank you, my heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, Your dear Son, that you have kept me this night from all harm and danger; and I pray that you keep me this day also from every sin and evil, that all my doings and life may please you. For into Your Hand I commend myself, my body and soul and all things. Let your Holy angel be with me, that the evil foe may have no power over me. Amen

I find this to be Biblical and Orthodox

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From the CF Dictionary:

Tradition of men: Biblical doctrine that I disagree with.

Word of God: My personal opinion.


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Could you explain this?

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Monkey Ninja