Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
I don't want to enter into this debate but I'm not able to utilise long audio or video files right now and I was wondering if this transcript; The Craig-Curley Debate: The Existence of the Christian God, was a good or poor example of Craig debating.
This is representative of his typical 5 point opening statement. If you look you will notice a 5 point argument:
1) Origin of the universe
2) Design of the universe
3) Objective moral values
4) Resurrection of Christ
5) Personal experience
There are more transcripts here, and his arguments are made in great detail here. The Curley debate was had in 1998. No doubt there have been new twists in Cosmology and he does a very thorough and timely job of addressing the latest cosmological points in his third edition of Reasonable Faith.
Debates are a huge red herring my opinion. All it proves is who can debate better. Hovind was brilliant in debates even if he had practically no truth. A debate can never be a measure of truth, just the persons ability to stump their opponent and/or sound persuasive.
Debates are a huge red herring my opinion. All it proves is who can debate better. Hovind was brilliant in debates even if he had practically no truth. A debate can never be a measure of truth, just the persons ability to stump their opponent and/or sound persuasive.
Then why are you posting on this forum?
I have found that debates are usually disliked by people who worry their position is indefensible.
I have found that debates are usually disliked by people who worry their position is indefensible.
Because I like to use forums for their primary purpose... discussion. I get into semi-debate forum discussions, but like I said a debate is a red herring. A debate rarely actually achieves something. Two people go in with agendas which means their agendas aren't going to change. On the other hand an open minded discussion allows people to communicate appropriately and if it's truly an open minded discussion then both parties are open to considering new things.
I find that people who choose to debate on forums are trying to prove something to themselves, that they need to act so zealous to confirm something they are unsure of
Because I like to use forums for their primary purpose... discussion. I get into semi-debate forum discussions, but like I said a debate is a red herring. A debate rarely actually achieves something. Two people go in with agendas which means their agendas aren't going to change. On the other hand an open minded discussion allows people to communicate appropriately and if it's truly an open minded discussion then both parties are open to considering new things.
I find that people who choose to debate on forums are trying to prove something to themselves, that they need to act so zealous to confirm something they are unsure of
It is, IMO, disingenuous to call what you do "discussion" and what others do "debate". Your denial of the utility of debate is vaguely reminiscent of many atheist's denial of debate because, in their words, "the supernatural is not a legitimate subject to debate". Usually, if someone wants to suppress, explicitly or implicitly, open honest debate it indicates a fear of losing.
It is, IMO, disingenuous to call what you do "discussion" and what others do "debate". Your denial of the utility of debate is vaguely reminiscent of many atheist's denial of debate because, in their words, "the supernatural is not a legitimate subject to debate". Usually, if someone wants to suppress, explicitly or implicitly, open honest debate it indicates a fear of losing.
Umm, where did I define that "others" debate and that I don't? Heck I even admitted I get into little debates. My point is that my goal is to discuss and not debate. A debate is either done for the benefit of onlookers, so they can judge your stances, or for proving something to yourself. I have neither desire. I don't have anything to prove to anyone else and I don't have anything to prove to myself.
Many people on these forums discuss and I've enjoyed many discussions. Even if they get a little "debatish" they can still be enjoyable. If they turn into pure debate then I have no interest.
Umm, where did I define that "others" debate and that I don't? Heck I even admitted I get into little debates. My point is that my goal is to discuss and not debate. A debate is either done for the benefit of onlookers, so they can judge your stances, or for proving something to yourself. I have neither desire. I don't have anything to prove to anyone else and I don't have anything to prove to myself.
Many people on these forums discuss and I've enjoyed many discussions. Even if they get a little "debatish" they can still be enjoyable. If they turn into pure debate then I have no interest.
In short don't put words in my mouth.
You are debating now. You have debated me in the past. You are debating in other threads in this forum right now. IMO, you are playing with words and trying to make a distinction with no difference. I agree there do exist discussions that are not debates, but the minute there is disagreement of any kind then it becomes a debate. Debate does not require formal rules.
You are debating now. You have debated me in the past. You are debating in other threads in this forum right now. IMO, you are playing with words and trying to make a distinction with no difference. I agree there do exist discussions that are not debates, but the minute there is disagreement of any kind then it becomes a debate. Debate does not require formal rules.
Yes I have debated, again I admit that I do debate at times. I simply stated that typically isn't my goal.
The difference between a debate and a discussion in which the way I am using them, is a debate is two people trying to prove each other wrong. A discussion is a sharing of ideas and as I said I value an "open minded discussion." I gave context. So when things turn into a debate it becomes useless in my opinion, yes I do debate at times and I do think it's useless after the fact. I very much prefer an open minded discussion.
An open minded discussion would be you saying you think ID is correct because of...
1, 2, and 3
I respond saying 1 and 2 may be valid, but I don't think 3 is valid, which leads me to conclusion X. You then respond actually considering what I've said and typically compromise and give a little ground. An open minded discussion is where both parties are open to new ideas and reconsidering their existing ones. A debate is not and yes many of our conversations have turned to debates. Yes I do think they are pointless. Your views never change, my views never change, we are doing it only for the benefit of ourselves.
Yes I have debated, again I admit that I do debate at times. I simply stated that typically isn't my goal.
The difference between a debate and a discussion in which the way I am using them, is a debate is two people trying to prove each other wrong. A discussion is a sharing of ideas and as I said I value an "open minded discussion." I gave context. So when things turn into a debate it becomes useless in my opinion, yes I do debate at times and I do think it's useless after the fact. I very much prefer an open minded discussion.
An open minded discussion would be you saying you think ID is correct because of...
1, 2, and 3
I respond saying 1 and 2 may be valid, but I don't think 3 is valid, which leads me to conclusion X. You then respond actually considering what I've said and typically compromise and give a little ground. An open minded discussion is where both parties are open to new ideas and reconsidering their existing ones. A debate is not and yes many of our conversations have turned to debates. Yes I do think they are pointless.
Like I said, you are playing with words and making a distinction with no difference. What you describe is a debate. A debate is not magically a discussion just because someone agrees to another's opinion or point with in the discussion. You are stating I'm not considering what you are saying. I do. That is why I respond. If I did not consider what you have said I would not respond.
Your views never change, my views never change, we are doing it only for the benefit of ourselves.
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