Denomination-specific TheologyA special subforum where a thread starter can restrict threads to replies by members of a particular denomination only to discuss denomination-specific theology.
Let me star off by saying if I offended you, I apologize. If I misread your post, I apologize. But it did seem like you were saying that Paul was wrong. I guess I just need to reread it several times. .
You are NOT offensive! And maybe I just did not write clearly!
Originally Posted by atcfisherman
However, to follow the entire bible we see that in the new testament that it is ok to eat meat and even meat that was once considered unclean. But, as Paul spoke of, we must always be observant to not offend the weaker christians or even the potential ones.
I know that this is what the churches teach, but it is not Scriptural. When Paul was speaking, he was speaking to those who ate kosher. Things that are not kosher were and are not considered food or meat. If Paul had intended that every animal was suddenly "meat" to be consumed, then it would be all right to eat lions, bears, worms, all insects, etc. But Messiah said that not one smallest bit of the Torah would be done away with until heaven and earth pass away, and they haven't yet.
__________________ Who can speak of His mighty deeds or show all His praise? How blessed are those who keep justice,
Please, please , please use a font size and color that we can all read. My poor old eyes became quite weary attempting to read the little light blue print that you used.
Originally Posted by bbbbbbb
On the topic, who has kept Torah perfectly? Are God's standards any less than complete and utter perfection? Who can ascend the hill of the Lord (Psalm 24:3)?
I am so sorry, but it won't let me change except on a post by post basis. I hate that color here, too, and it is also hard on my eyes, but nothing I do changes it away from that color permanently.
If no one can keep Torah perfectly, does that mean we should not try? Does our inability, based upon our sin, negate Torah, which is G-d's?
__________________ Who can speak of His mighty deeds or show all His praise? How blessed are those who keep justice,
I have long considered bacon a gift from God. Especially alongside buttermilk pancakes with fresh strawberries and maple syrup and a pot of wicked strong coffee.
I am so sorry, but it won't let me change except on a post by post basis. I hate that color here, too, and it is also hard on my eyes, but nothing I do changes it away from that color permanently.
I understand the problem. Here is what you should do - Just above the box where you are writing your post there is a series of icons. Just above the box at the far left you will see a B. If you click on it it will make your text bold like this. The next one is I which makes your text italic like this. The next is U which underlines your words. Then there are a lat of other icons which can do a lot of different things for you.
Right above this row you will probably see a which space with the word, "Fonts" in it. If you click on it you will get a list of different font styles. This is Georgia, for example. Next to is is another box labeled sizes. You can change the size of the font by clicking on it like so - This is 7. Three is quite readable, but 2 is the typical default size which I am using now. To the right of Size is a large. Click on it and you will get a lot of little boxes with colors. I clicked on the red box to get this and the light blue box to get this, Most people have black as their default color.
I hope this helps. It took me a while to figure it out.
Originally Posted by Shahzam
If no one can keep Torah perfectly, does that mean we should not try? Does our inability, based upon our sin, negate Torah, which is G-d's?
That is a really good question. I think each believer in Messah will do their utmost to please G-d - not as a means to attain eternal life or gain favor, but out of love and gratitude.
The question becomes how does one do that. We have Torah which nobody disputes as being from G-d. The great difficulty with Torah is that no longer are Temple sacrifices possible, much less needed, because Messiah has fulfilled those requirements. As believers in Messiah we do not attempt to substitute our obedience to Torah for those sacrifices. Rather, Messiah has done that for us.
In the same way, the New Testament makes it clear that circumcision is now of the heart and not outwardly so that I, as a gentile believer, am not under Torah in that regard. As you know, circumcision is a major aspect of Torah.
Believers in Messiah are also free to observe new moons and sabbaths but should not impose their own observance upon other believers.
I think you see a similar thing in Judaism where various traditions have developed so that some believe that others must follow their tradition to be truly Jewish but others embrace all who are Jewish (and that is debatable, as well) regardless of tradition.
I do not judge you for your adherence to Torah and I hope you understand that other believers in Messiah, especially gentiles such as myself, hold different views regarding Torah.
Oh, that was so kind of you to write all that out for me! I know how to make each individual post do things, but I was using the set of 3 commands on the left under Your Profile in order to set my posts up universally. I set my font color to a dark blue, but I got an eye-jarring turquoise. I have not been able to fix that or the fact that it made my font tiny.
Since someone besides me complained (I was only complaining about it to myself, not to the board), I tried to fix it several times, but it always reverts. I simply dislike having to fix it for every post, because it is a pain. Maybe I will look into it further and see if there is still another way.
[hr]
Regarding Torah, I believe that Messiah knew we would be without the Temple, and I believe that this was the reason for the book of Hebrews. But I also believe that the Temple will be temporarily reinstated, as it says in Zachariah.
When Messiah said that He did not come to abolish Torah, I believe He meant it, and since heaven and earth have not passed away, I believe Torah still stands.
As far as being "under" Torah, I don't believe any true believer is under the condemnation of Torah, but i do not believe that this takes away our desire to serve the L-rd and to do what He has said in Torah.
I don't believe that there are two ways of salvation, but i understand that there are people who have not been convicted to follow Torah. For these, it is curious to me that they don't want to follow Torah! I think they don't because so many teachers have done their best to make it look like following Torah is a chore, that it takes away freedom, that it is somehow a lower way of life, and SOME even teach that it a SIN to do Torah. That is SO unfortunate! So sad.
__________________ Who can speak of His mighty deeds or show all His praise? How blessed are those who keep justice,
Oh, that was so kind of you to write all that out for me! I know how to make each individual post do things, but I was using the set of 3 commands on the left under Your Profile in order to set my posts up universally. I set my font color to a dark blue, but I got an eye-jarring turquoise. I have not been able to fix that or the fact that it made my font tiny.
Originally Posted by Shahzam
Since someone besides me complained (I was only complaining about it to myself, not to the board), I tried to fix it several times, but it always reverts. I simply dislike having to fix it for every post, because it is a pain. Maybe I will look into it further and see if there is still another way.
I don't know how you can reset the default since I have not had that problem. Once I had a problem where my password was being rejected so I had to reregister under my current name. If all else fails you might want to try that.
Originally Posted by Shahzam
Regarding Torah, I believe that Messiah knew we would be without the Temple, and I believe that this was the reason for the book of Hebrews. But I also believe that the Temple will be temporarily reinstated, as it says in Zachariah.
Yes, I agree entirely with you about that.
Originally Posted by Shahzam
When Messiah said that He did not come to abolish Torah, I believe He meant it, and since heaven and earth have not passed away, I believe Torah still stands.
Some believers understand this to mean that Torah still stands as G-d's standard for judgment, which, of course, is true. They see that Messiah has fulfilled all of its requirements for the believer and thus they believe is free from its commands being, instead, under the law of Christ, which is to love G-d and to love our neighbor as ourself (Luke 10:25-28).
Originally Posted by Shahzam
As far as being "under" Torah, I don't believe any true believer is under the condemnation of Torah, but i do not believe that this takes away our desire to serve the L-rd and to do what He has said in Torah.
This certainly does not take away the desire of a true believer to serve the L-rd. For an observant Jew serving the Lord can be done through Torah. For gentile believers such as myself the interpretation made at the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15 is, at least, a minimum. I do not know of any gentile believers who do not keep from idols, fornication, things strangled, and from blood.
Originally Posted by Shahzam
I don't believe that there are two ways of salvation, but i understand that there are people who have not been convicted to follow Torah. For these, it is curious to me that they don't want to follow Torah! I think they don't because so many teachers have done their best to make it look like following Torah is a chore, that it takes away freedom, that it is somehow a lower way of life, and SOME even teach that it a SIN to do Torah. That is SO unfortunate! So sad.
Yes, most gentile believers have no conviction to follow Torah. Before I was a believer I thought that following Messiah would take away any happiness or joy. However, that is not true at all, even though I do not do any of the things the unbelievers find to satisfy their sinful desires.
Anyone who teaches that it is SIN do do Torah is either very mistaken or is in sin. As believers in Messiah we have freedom in some areas so that what is a great joy for one believer may not be so for another. For example, by observing Shabbat some believers find great joy but others, such as myself, might not. However, it is not for me to condemn you for doing so unless you are believing that you are gaining merit by doing so. If you are doing it out of love for G-d I must not judge you. On the other hand, many gentile believers such as myself have not come to appreciate Torah as a way of glorifying G-d. You have freedom to show use the right way of doing so.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
I wonder how the people in the audience felt when he advised against eating all these unhealthy food. People just don't seem to realize that God gives us certain commands because he knows what is best for us. A pig eats the same thing now as it used to eat in the old testament. Jesus dies on the cross to save sinners and not to make us free to eat whatever unhealthy meat we want. It just does not make sense for Jesus to do that.
5th September 2009, 04:51 PM
You are NOT offensive! And maybe I just did not write clearly!
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