Denomination-specific TheologyA special subforum where a thread starter can restrict threads to replies by members of a particular denomination only to discuss denomination-specific theology.
I was raised from birth under the laws to which we are debating. My father as the pastor of my church still abides by these laws to which he was raised. I myself no longer do. I laid aside these things when I had my son, because I could not justify why I would bring him up under such laws. Since this was a significant part of my life, I dilgently studied and prayed out this very issue, and I would like to share with you the knowledge I have gained. Gained not only through my experience, but from much time reading God's Word.
First, Leviticus was God's word to Israel to teach them two important truths about how they could sustain a relationship with Him.
1 - That they could enter a relationship with Him by the atonement for their sins. Foregiveness which was obtained by sacrificing the right things, the right way, by the right people (priest).
2 - That they could maintain that relationship by living according to His regulations. His people were to be separate from others, and His laws were precise.
Of all the books of the OT, Christians struggle with how to apply Leviticus. The New Testament (Hebrews - which is important to because we are talking about a letter sent to Jews) teaches us that the right sacrifice offered the right way by the right priest (our high priest) was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Then the New Testament repeatedly enforces that our relationship is no longer maintained by works of circumcision, keeping holy days, offerings, or dietary laws. Our relationship is maintained by submitting our lives to Christ with the direction and power of the Holy Spirit. Christians of today need to realize that Gods two principles of Leviticus still hold true today but its state as it was in Leviticus was only in effect until the Messiah came, which was Christ. (Gal 4)
To argue against this would be against our covenant in Christ. If maintaining our salvation is by submitting our lives to the direction of the Holy Spirit, then we would have to apply that one who does not follow the laws of Leviticus is not saved, if you maintain that the Holy Spirit would guide us to do so. But it is evident that this is not the case, and no one who keeps these laws could successfully argue it is.
So if you feel like you are growing in Christ by not eating of the things laid out in Leviticus then you should continue to do so, because we (as Paul states) would not want to see it be a stumbling block for you. At that same time, if not following these dietary laws presents no conviction from the Holy Spirit, nor takes away from another's spiritual growth, it would be incorrect for us to apply those restrictions to them.
If you are telling one that eating pork is a sin, you do not even fully understand why you yourself do not eat it. It is not because it is a sin, but rather you see it as a way to stay in your faith. If you understood it correctly, then for you it would be equal to praying or reading your Bible.
As for me, as I have said, I set aside those things. I read (a lot), pray, play music, teach new Christians class, among a number of things as a way to maintain my relationship with Christ. This lifestyle change is directly under guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it fruit is one of many things I can base my assurance of salvation upon.
Shaun
__________________ Intelligence is not a requirement for being a Christian. Lucky for us God can work despite our ignorance.
Shall we discount Paul and what he wrote, because he and the elders had misunderstood and was wrong about keeping Torah -- and about leading these poor young men astray through supporting their vow and the sacrifice? Or should we throw out what Paul and the elders wrote in the same manner that many have thrown out the "old testament," except for Psalms, Proverbs, and the stories. Shall we distill the Scrtiptures down to these and the Gospels and maybe Revelation?
Many use Romans 14 as an excuse to eat pork and other forbidden foods, but the fact is that this Scripture was written by people who would not even think of unkosher stuff as food, and it was written to people who understood that, who lived by it, whose main concern was whether the kosher animals had been offered to idols.
May Heaven help us!
So, you are saying that Paul was wrong? If so, then you are saying that part of the Bible is wrong and if that is the case, then it can't be the infallable word of God.
Also, Romans is not an excuse to eat pork, but rather instructions to help those weak not to stumble. It is permissible to eat any meat, but if it makes your brother stumble, then it is better to refrain from it.
I take it you are a legalistic Jew whom focuses more on the law than on Christ. Chirst came to fullfill the law. The pharaseans were so worried about keeping the law that they failed to see that God was more concerned about their hearts rather than the outward traditional actions.
So, either you accept the entire bible as a whole and it's fullfillment of Christ as the savior or not any of the bible. To pick and choose certain parts of the bible to follow is like taking all the vegetables out of vetetable soups except the peas. Then, it isn't vegetable soup any more, but pea soup and is incomplete. Just something to think about.
Also, where does it say that Jesus never ever ate pork? Just wondering! Does it also say that he never ever went to the potty? My point is just because it doesn't say something doesn't mean he didn't do it. It's like instruments for worship. They are used all throughout the bible to worship God, but just because it doesn't specifically say that Jesus used them, some groups say they are not ment for worship. But, Jesus never said not to use them either and He knew of the worship and praise practices of the times and that instruments were being used to praise God.
Then as His followers (aka Christians), neither should we.
It's really that simple.
Forget your man made traditions, the crowd and what your taste buds tell you and follow God's specific instructions to the best of your ability He created mankind and all beasts and He knows what's best for His children.
Following in His footsteps,
JF
Trust God....... He knows what He is doing and why He said what He did... If He declares it unclean... its purpose is not for food...
Many of the texts of the new testament that is dealing with the unclean food being made clean has to do not with the "food" that God has declared to be "food' for us, but the "unclean" ceremonies that the Jews had over the kosher food.
Today you can still see it in the clean food that the Muslims prepare to sell. A Jew will not buy it because while it may be clean food, it is unclean in the Jewish eyes because it was not prepared right.
That is what Paul was dealing with... so what if it was sacrificed on the wrong altar... Do not call unclean what is a clean animal for food by God's standards.
Yeshua dealt with the same issue, because it may have come from a kosher market, prepared in the kosher method, but if the Jew did not do the ceremonial washing it would become tainted and therefore unclean.
Keep it simple, if God said don't do that... Don't...no matter what man says, your tastebuds desire, or excuses to disobey God. In the last days when the Lord comes.....
Isaiah 66:16-18 (King James Version)
16For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
I have long considered bacon a gift from God. Especially alongside buttermilk pancakes with fresh strawberries and maple syrup and a pot of wicked strong coffee.
You and I both know that Paul was the main writer in the latter Scriptures. The leaders made sure, in Acts, that he was following Torah, and sanctioned his proving that he followed Torah through doing the Nazerite vow, which is followed by a sacrifice in the Tample. The leaders also sanctioned his doing the oath with some young men, paying for their sacrifice procedure at the Temple. Shall we discount Paul and what he wrote, because he and the elders had misunderstood and was wrong about keeping Torah -- and about leading these poor young men astray through supporting their vow and the sacrifice? Or should we throw out what Paul and the elders wrote in the same manner that many have thrown out the "old testament," except for Psalms, Proverbs, and the stories. Shall we distill the Scrtiptures down to these and the Gospels and maybe Revelation?
The Scriptures are clear that we are also not to eat blood. That is easy for anyone who is interested to find and follow.
You may have eaten pig, snake, and shark all your life, and you continue to live, but that means nothing. Whether or not one takes what is written in the Bible seriously is all that means anything in this subject.
Many use Romans 14 as an excuse to eat pork and other forbidden foods, but the fact is that this Scripture was written by people who would not even think of unkosher stuff as food, and it was written to people who understood that, who lived by it, whose main concern was whether the kosher animals had been offered to idols.
Do you understand what fulfill meant when He said He same to fulfill all the Torah and the Prophets? You are going to give it the meaning that you prefer, I know, the the plain meaning is that He came to do all that was in the Torah and the Prophets. He goes on to say that anyone who teaches against the Torah will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Is being called least all you aspire to? Is this enough for you? This is Scripture -- in Matthew! -- so I guess we have to throw that out also.
Okay! Let's all get out our penknives and start cutting. Take out all the Scriptures that you don't agree with, that you think are obsolete. What's left? Get a tiny three-ring binder, put the holes in the proper places on the pages that are left, and put them in the binder. You don't need the rest of that book -- it's too heavy for you.
May Heaven help us!
Originally Posted by atcfisherman
So, you are saying that Paul was wrong? If so, then you are saying that part of the Bible is wrong and if that is the case, then it can't be the infallable word of God.
Also, Romans is not an excuse to eat pork, but rather instructions to help those weak not to stumble. It is permissible to eat any meat, but if it makes your brother stumble, then it is better to refrain from it.
I take it you are a legalistic Jew whom focuses more on the law than on Christ. Chirst came to fullfill the law. The pharaseans were so worried about keeping the law that they failed to see that God was more concerned about their hearts rather than the outward traditional actions.
So, either you accept the entire bible as a whole and it's fullfillment of Christ as the savior or not any of the bible. To pick and choose certain parts of the bible to follow is like taking all the vegetables out of vetetable soups except the peas. Then, it isn't vegetable soup any more, but pea soup and is incomplete. Just something to think about.
Your paragraph 1: Apparently, you did not read what I wrote. Where did I say that Paul was wrong?
Your paragraph 2: Where did I write that Romans was "an excuse to eat pork"?
You wrote that "It is permissible to eat any meat," but you misunderstand the Scripture.
Your paragraph 3: you wrote, "Chirst came to fullfill the law." Do you understand the word fulfill? Why did Messiah say that none of the Torah would pass away until heaven and earth passed away? Has heaven and earth passed away? Why did He say that those who take away from the Torah would be the least in the Kingdom, but those who teach to follow it would be great in the Kingdom?
Your paragraph 4: Do you accept that the Bible is one book and all of Scripture is given for our benefit? Do you adhere to the "Ten Commandments" or just 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10? Are you doing the feasts and fasts?
Originally Posted by atcfisherman
Also, where does it say that Jesus never ever ate pork? Just wondering! Does it also say that he never ever went to the potty? My point is just because it doesn't say something doesn't mean he didn't do it. It's like instruments for worship. They are used all throughout the bible to worship God, but just because it doesn't specifically say that Jesus used them, some groups say they are not ment for worship. But, Jesus never said not to use them either and He knew of the worship and praise practices of the times and that instruments were being used to praise God.
I SO HOPE that you didn't really write this. Please say some grimlin did! Messiah said that He came to do the whole Torah. Either He did the whole Torah, which says not to eat Pork, or He lied. Pork is not considered in the Bible to be food, except by pagans.
__________________ Who can speak of His mighty deeds or show all His praise? How blessed are those who keep justice,
Your paragraph 1: Apparently, you did not read what I wrote. Where did I say that Paul was wrong?
Your paragraph 2: Where did I write that Romans was "an excuse to eat pork"?
You wrote that "It is permissible to eat any meat," but you misunderstand the Scripture.
Your paragraph 3: you wrote, "Chirst came to fullfill the law." Do you understand the word fulfill? Why did Messiah say that none of the Torah would pass away until heaven and earth passed away? Has heaven and earth passed away? Why did He say that those who take away from the Torah would be the least in the Kingdom, but those who teach to follow it would be great in the Kingdom?
Your paragraph 4: Do you accept that the Bible is one book and all of Scripture is given for our benefit? Do you adhere to the "Ten Commandments" or just 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10? Are you doing the feasts and fasts?
I SO HOPE that you didn't really write this. Please say some grimlin did! Messiah said that He came to do the whole Torah. Either He did the whole Torah, which says not to eat Pork, or He lied. Pork is not considered in the Bible to be food, except by pagans.
Let me star off by saying if I offended you, I apologize. If I misread your post, I apologize. But it did seem like you were saying that Paul was wrong. I guess I just need to reread it several times.
However, to follow the entire bible we see that in the new testament that it is ok to eat meat and even meat that was once considered unclean. But, as Paul spoke of, we must always be observant to not offend the weaker christians or even the potential ones.
Your paragraph 1: Apparently, you did not read what I wrote. Where did I say that Paul was wrong?
Your paragraph 2: Where did I write that Romans was "an excuse to eat pork"?
You wrote that "It is permissible to eat any meat," but you misunderstand the Scripture.
Your paragraph 3: you wrote, "Chirst came to fullfill the law." Do you understand the word fulfill? Why did Messiah say that none of the Torah would pass away until heaven and earth passed away? Has heaven and earth passed away? Why did He say that those who take away from the Torah would be the least in the Kingdom, but those who teach to follow it would be great in the Kingdom?
Your paragraph 4: Do you accept that the Bible is one book and all of Scripture is given for our benefit? Do you adhere to the "Ten Commandments" or just 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10? Are you doing the feasts and fasts?
I SO HOPE that you didn't really write this. Please say some grimlin did! Messiah said that He came to do the whole Torah. Either He did the whole Torah, which says not to eat Pork, or He lied. Pork is not considered in the Bible to be food, except by pagans.
Please, please , please use a font size and color that we can all read. My poor old eyes became quite weary attempting to read the little light blue print that you used.
On the topic, who has kept Torah perfectly? Are God's standards any less than complete and utter perfection? Who can ascend the hill of the Lord (Psalm 24:3)?
I have tried several times to change it, and it won't change. Also, this was not the color i chose initially. I had chosen a dark blue. This time, I chose black. Will it change? It also will not allow me to delete a post.
__________________ Who can speak of His mighty deeds or show all His praise? How blessed are those who keep justice,
and follow God's specific instructions to the best of your ability He created mankind and all beasts and He knows what's best for His children. 
Messiah said that He came to do the whole Torah. Either He did the whole Torah, which says not to eat Pork, or He lied. Pork is not considered in the Bible to be food, except by pagans. 
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