The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, [...] and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
Exactly. Joseph, aside from being Mary's husband, had absolutely no part in Jesus' conception whatsoever. He wasn't Jesus' father. So how is Jesus a descendant of David?
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"On the eve of the passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out in front of him for 40 days, saying: "He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and lead Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead on his behalf."
From this we know Jesus existed
Jesus wasn't stoned.
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All I have heard is how creation is a joke but have seen no references to your view point of why? Saying this over and over doesn't make it more true; in fact, its all sounding very childish. I showed you just a portion of my evidence. I will be waiting for the other view point.
Because your creation myths are as silly as all the other creation myths. And have zero credibility.
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I will name a couple mathematicians as there are more. Yes, mathematicians can be wrong-there is always a possibility. Again, pink and green elephants flying around in a room is possible but not probable.This is why I use statistics because nothing can be proved with 100% accuracy. We arn't sure the sun will come up tomorrow 100%.
Henry M. Morris, PhD is Engineering and Math wrote an article on The Bible and Modern Science.
In this article is a mathematican named Peter Stoner, a PhD in CA. Each class member was assigned a particular Messianic prophecy for study with the purpose of determining the statistical chance that a particular event could have been predicted without supernatural inspiration. For example, the prophecy in Micah 5:2 says that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Thus, the probability of chance fulfillment would be one divided by the number of towns in Israel at the time. The probabilities of fulfillment were determined for each of 48 Messianic prophecies-as each student was assigned a prophecy.
The probability of several chance occurrences independent of each other - is like playing power ball but even more remote because power ball doesn't have 48 numbers in it. This conclusion with the professor of all 48 possibilities occurring at the same time was one in with one with 181 zeros.
__________________ Sola Scriptura is Eternal Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, 2 Peter 1:20. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (October 11, 1798). Roe vs. Wade - 45 million **Proverbs 6:16-17 - states that there are seven things that are an abomination to the Lord; one of them is the shedding of innocentblood. The B.O. Must Go! Huckabee in 2012
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it. Your free will- will override any evidence that people give you. I was debating Amoeba the person who started this thread- they haven't even showed up. This all seems futile to me because they haven't showed up yet, but I'm always glad to present the evidence and facts no matter what. I don't discuss these things normally with those who have already made up their mind -its a waste of my time and theirs.
Other than Amoeba who started this thread and others who haven't made up their mind already-I'm not interested in discussing this subject anymore as you get myths mixed up with fact and think fables are fact.
Oh, that Joseph -trying to be clever CoderHead. So, because Jesus wasn't conceived by Joseph and Mary in the physical sense so he doesn't have a lineage? God doesn't bow to natural laws but you can't say his lineage doesn't exist because he was conceived by virgin birth. Good try.
I'm done responding here to everyone but Amoeba. He hasn't showed up-he is the one I'm suppose to debate and so hasn't even back up what he has said. I think I'm surrounded by politicians.
***Responses such as myths blah blah + no resources + noise + Jesus wasn't this or that=Zero
__________________ Sola Scriptura is Eternal Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, 2 Peter 1:20. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (October 11, 1798). Roe vs. Wade - 45 million **Proverbs 6:16-17 - states that there are seven things that are an abomination to the Lord; one of them is the shedding of innocentblood. The B.O. Must Go! Huckabee in 2012
Last edited by salida; 24th September 2009 at 09:03 PM.
Oh, that Joseph -trying to be clever CoderHead. So, because Jesus wasn't conceived by Joseph and Mary in the physical sense so he doesn't have a lineage? God doesn't bow to natural laws but you can't say his lineage doesn't exist because he was conceived by virgin birth. Good try.
So if you had a step-father, would you trace your lineage through him? No! You'd trace it through your biological father and/or your mother. In the case you didn't know who your father was (or that your father doesn't have a lineage because he's God), you'd use your mother's ancestors only - not your step-parent.
Come on, seriously. This is obviously a case of creative interpretation in order to check off another prophecy. So, back to you - good try.
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Hi, I'm new, and I just wanted to expound on creationism. Also, when I use the word creationism, I also mean intelligent design.
First of all, Christians can believe in God and evolution, and be 100% content in their compatibility. If anyone states that evolution disproves god, or that you can't be a christian and believe in evolution, just know...they are full of it...
Creationism is full of logical holes and assumptions based on ideological grounds...in fact, I believe it puts God in a box, a box which he does not belong. It limits God to an interpretation not based in reality. Why is it not based in reality? Because the scientific data does not support it. Science itself allows the experiment to dictate the results. But creationists turn this on its head. They know the answer. They are simply trying to make the experiment fit into their preconceived view of reality. That is not science. And if you believe in God, you should also believe that science is the pursuit of knowing the mind of God.
Creationism relies on a false dichotemy. The creationists I have seen (i.e. Ken Ham, etc) main goal is not to prove creationism. Their main goal is disprove evolution, and the logic is, "If we disprove evolution, then creationism must be right." Unfortunately for them, disproving evolution does not prove creationism, especially given the fact that the proposition, "God created the universe", is a completely unprovable proposition within the realm of science. So to say creationism is science is a blatant oxymoron because "God" cannot be empirically studied. Intelligent design included.
Evolution says nothing about god or the existence god. If anything, if you are a Christian, you should be amazed at the fact of evolution, biological and cosmic. That God, in his logic, created a universe which evolves according to physical laws, and this evolution, after 13.7 billion years, resulted in you. It took 13.7 billion years of evolution for you to exist, and the fact that you even exist, that all the events during this insurmountable amount of time, resulted in your birth, is simply amazing. Evolution is a miracle and to deny it, in my opinion, is to deny reality. It is a fact, and if God created this universe, and us, it was done by evolution.
The Bible is full of wisdom, history, and theology. But it is NOT a scientific document. Let me repeat that. THE BIBLE IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC DOCUMENT. There is a real problem with creationist "science" because it is based on a non-scientific document and assumed to be the answer to all scientific questions of our origins.
One of creationists main focuses are human evolution. They just cannot believe that we evolved from ape-like ancestors, or single-celled organisms. A good one I've heard while in church was, "They want us to believe we evolved from pond scum! Pond scum." Well, perhaps not "pond scum", but we are essentially made out of dirt. Even the bible says (Gen 2:7), "the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." 13.7 billion years condensed into one sentence! Amazing! All living things are made of the same carbon based chemical concoction. Yes, we are made of the same stuff as trees, fish, and yes, apes. That is not to say we are a tree or fish or an ape (though we are in the same super-family).
So to conclude. Evolution is a fact. If you are a Christian and questioning whether you can believe in God and evolution, you can! Wonder in amazement that an almost infinite number of events over a incomprehensible amount of time (13.7 billion years), led to your birth, your life, both of which, should have statistically never happened! Reflect on that.
That was simply AWESOME!!!!!
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Creationism has logical holes and its a false dichotomy you claim? Even intelligent design? Please be very specific here. Your automobile didn't appear in this air; but a human body cell that is 1000 times more complicated did? Hmm. Show me this logically. The bible isn't a scientific document? Again, whats the point? It has an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that supports it. Are you claiming that things can be proven only using the scientific method? Can you prove love and hate this way? Just because evolution can be disapproved creationism is right? No, this isn't my case sir. Show me that your brand of evolution definition is a fact. I believe in some macroevolution and all microevolution-this is fact. Something coming from nothing and a one celled organism is a farce. Science is merely an interpretation of things by men that God has done - thats it.
First we can end this debate faster on creationism possibly because the book its in called the Bible does have empirical evidence that supports it- an overwhelming amount. When this is accomplished, it will logically put this debate to rest because it will also answer the intellectual design and your brand of evolution question.
You used a lot of words but said nothing at all. Congratulations.
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I will give you outside sources about Christ. That isn't difficult either. I will mention a portion out of many historians:
Jewish Talmud
Tannaitic Period: from 70 AD to 200AD- Sanhedrin 43a:
"On the eve of the passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out in front of him for 40 days, saying: "He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and lead Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead on his behalf." (These jews who wrote this despised him)
From this we know Jesus existed, was crucified (hanged on a tree) on the eve of the passover, he performed miracles (jews called this sorcery), he lead many people away from legalistic jewish teaching, the jewish leaders were plotting to kill Jesus.
Historian Tacitus; He wrote a 12 volume set called the Annuals which spans the historical period from the reign of Tiberius (from a point predating the ministry of Jesus) to the reigns of Claudius and the beginning of Nero's (the last years of Paul's ministry). He wrote in 115AD - Christus (founder of christianity) was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea. Tacitus was antichristian.
Historian Phlegon; Origen,184-254AD; Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes that took place.
Documents that prove bible is true not in bible:
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles
-Historical Accuracy The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any. (Bible compared to other ancient documents): New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies Homer - starts at 500 years Demosthenes - at 1400 years Plato - at 1200 years Caesar - at 1000 years
Number of Manuscript Copies New Testament - 5,686 Homer - 643 Demosthenes - 200 Plato - 7 Caesar - 10
The OP didn't deny the validy of Christ. It denied Creationism as God's method of creating the world.
It's called Theistic Evolution.
Ken Miller wrote Finding Darwin's God and he's Catholic and teaches biology at Brown.
Francis Collins, leader of the Human Genome Project, was led to Christ by studying DNA. Read his book, "The Language of God."
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