I'll have to pass that sermon. It would take too long to get to the meat and potatoes.
It comes from a website that understands prophecies as fulfilled, thus it's likely a historically fulfilled perspective.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 26th July 2009 at 04:53 AM.
It comes from a website that understands that prophecies to be fulfilled, thus it's likely a historically fulfilled perspective.
i've been deleloping an eschatological 'thesis' of my own, independant of anyone else, just the bible and me, and drawing from the ideas of notable's from history also.
So i have little time for any particular 'ist.. as in camp, or doctrine. Although as far as church teaching, i am most closely in agreement with SDA and Catholic, as far as eschatology goes. Or rather early Catholic, before the futurist/preterist thing came about.
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i've been deleloping an eschatological 'thesis' of my own, independant of anyone else, just the bible and me, and drawing from the ideas of notable's from history also.
So i have little time for any particular 'ist.. as in camp, or doctrine. Although as far as church teaching, i am most closely in agreement with SDA and Catholic, as far as eschatology goes. Or rather early Catholic, before the futurist/preterist thing came about.
Interesting; that is exactly how I came about to what is called the preterist (prophecy fulfilled) views. By reading the passages in their historical context as if I were an individual person or group of people to whom the prophecy, letter, book, or passage was written to and then looking at what occurred in history over the age.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 28th July 2009 at 07:36 AM.
Intersting; that is exaclty how I came about to what is called the preterist (prophecy fulfilled) views. By reading the passages in their historical context as if I were a person or group of people living in that day to whom the prophecy, letter, book, or passage was written to and then looking at what occured in history over the age.
If I have to define myself, I am a historicist, amillennialist, but I still think there are various events yet to happen, as outlined in Revelation, which is why I am not preterist (I think that is a reasonable view of preterism; that it is mostly happened), I go with the thinking that most has already happened.. I see Daniel as the book for the 70 weeks from the time of Daniel in the court of Nebuchadnezzar until the death of Christ.. with nothing show-horned in to any future gap-year. The last chapter in Daniel is about the end of the world. The prophesies in Joel, Ezekiel, which are used to support futurist, are in fact prophesies about possible happenings to historic Israel, whether they repent and turn back, or if not then the events happened as predicted. I was reading about Ezekiel 38-39 and how that is listed in the book of Ester, as a real event which involved the Persian empire being defeated by Israel at one time.. I need to check that out in detail. My eschatological ‘thesis’ is that Revelation is a true and reliable prophesy, given to Christians to elucidate on the events which will unfold until the return of Christ, and the close of history. So by examining Revelation in detail, we should be able to sort out the truth about history and future events. So by taking only Revelation and looking only at that book, and then cross-referencing to the rest of the bible, that is the way to go, I think. My belief at the moment is that the futurists got it wrong, they constructed an elaborate future scenario, which they thought was correct, because they were trying to scan through the whole bible, without any investigation about if it was historical or future, or both, or what. This to me is most obvious with the splitting of the book of Daniel, into 69+1 weeks.. I see no justification to do that.. it doesn’t say anywhere to do it. Another thing is the use of Ezekiel 38-39 to construct a future war involving Russia and the State of Israel, yet ignoring all the wording that is illustrating an ancient battle; I can’t see any way that that works out. And the reality of it doesn’t play out either. And it isn’t in the book of Revelation at all. I am going through each chapter one by one now, and examining what it is about, each chapter. There seems to be a large consensus on all this, out there in various documents, written by many people. I wonder if the futurist interpretation is just a minority view in fact, and is not the long running viewpoint of biblical scholars. I read many years ago in a book about this, that the 200,000,000 soldier army, was China, and the Euphrates river literally dried up to allow this Chinese army to cross over. Now looking at the chapter for myself, I can see that the army was in fact the Ottomans, and that the Euphrates River is only a symbol, for the Ottomans. The Euphrates River drying up is a symbol, for the source of that Islam drying up, the source of its power.
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Thanks for the synopsis;
I had gone through a period of historicist viewpoint which was a bridge to preterist. The date of Revelations writing has a significant impact on viewing it and it's interpretation. Weather it is progressively fulfilled and/or fulfilled in the things that had to then at that time (68 AD) very shortly come to pass.
A couple issues that I see pertinent to Revelation.
The very central theme of the time period is the end and closure of the shadow old national conditional covenant given to moses and the revealing of the reality of the unconditional Everlasting covenant of mercy (the covenant confirmed by Christ in the midst of the week).
spare the oil and the wine could refer to how John the apostle was called the beloved (wine) and how he did not boil in the oil of his attempted murder/killing.
there is a place that talks of the price of wheat and barley and the prices given are almost opposite of their traditional prices of that day. This could have been due to how the sects inside national Israel fought against one another and burned the wheat storage.
On and on we could go, but the evidence that Revelations addresses and forecasts events in and around Judea at the time of the old covenants close is equal to or greater than that evidence which suggests that there is a supposed end of the world that is talked about.
I think there are other views of Dan 12 which would again point towards the end of the old covenant vs the end of the 'world'.
Originally Posted by hiscosmicgoldfish
My eschatological ‘thesis’ is that Revelation is a true and reliable prophesy, given to Christians to elucidate on the events which will unfold until the return of Christ, and the close of history. So by examining Revelation in detail, we should be able to sort out the truth about history and future events.
I dont' presume that there is a close on history. There is a close on each persons life at the end of their days in which they give account and reap what is sewn in the Spirit (I Cor 15).
I view based on Christ teaching of who the Holy Spirit Is in John 14-16 and elsewhere that Christ has not left and therefore does not need to "return" to set up his kingdom. Paul confirms this teaching in Romans 10.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word (Christ)is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
The spiritual laws of the kingdom of God and the individual everlasting covenant of mercy and life (called the 'new' covenant by contrasting against the old covenant Israel) have been empowered and finalized at the cross and are enforced from the Creator. Dan 7:27 is history passed and refers to the time after Nero and the Judaizers/talmudists tried to stamp out the followers of the Way of redeemed life of the Creator.
I also view that there WAS at least ONE return of Christ as He promised to come to close the old covenant. The kingdom that he established in power when he did return through the minds of the leaders of the enemies (Deut 32:42) remains in power if we seek it. It is politically (by choice) recognized/respected as well as Creator empowered and established. He brought wrath upon the shadow old covenant and what had become a false religion in Jerusalem aka Egypt/Sodom/Babylon even being compared with the old world destroyed by flood. Have your read Duet 32? Read in the NKJV. Duet 29-32 was the progressive history of the nation of Israel including the Babylonian captivity, their return in Chapter 30, God himself teaching their hearts as Immanual.. God with us...came in flesh and incarnate also in chapter 30. After which many still would not believe (Duet 30/31) and understand but would persist in their attitudes of corporal superioritiy/false religion...resulting in the 'latter end' of their days and the latter end of the old covenant as prophesied in Duet 32.
I veiew that Rev 21 is the present time application for those who are called by his name to live in.
The very most important issue is that an individual comes to grips with and finds an answer for his/her mortality (eventual or near death) in light of of the magnificence and Love evident in the grandeur of LIFE and in the creation. This contrast demands a remedy and an answer. The creator himself is that remedy by taking the penalty of the law of sin and death upon himself thereby canceling it for those who believe. Individually calling upon the Person/Character of the Creator and receiving his Eternal Spirit unconditionally through faith begins the process of learning and living without fear of punishment or condemnation or being compelled to a performance other than steps/walk of faith. It is with that reformed inner spirit and through that one to one relationship that the writings and literature of the Bible can be understood.
I dont' believe there is any Santa Clause principles in doctrines of life or of a return of Christ. Do good, join and keep a 'christian' church membership, so that if/when Christ returns, you'll be counted with him and will rule with him in some future 'kingdom'. These concepts are destined to fail with use just as the old covenant law was. Not saying that 'doing good' or church membership is erroneous on it's own, but they do not obtain a Santa Clause visit who gives gifts to some and sticks to others. As some are noted to say... it doesn't give a Santa Clause.
Nice interacting with you... sometimes this stuff gets very heady though.
Feel like riding a xrcise bike or working on/fixing something now and then.
Glad you seeing that prophecies given to the old covenant nation had fulfillment during their old covenant nations existence.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 28th July 2009 at 07:59 AM.
Again, which of all these things were not fulfilled by the events up to and around 66-73 AD?
Since there was no conclusive agreement or further discussion on the answer to this question or any acknowledgment that they were fulfilled,
the question is stated again...
Which of 'all these things' were not fulfilled during the first century with the Olivet discourse thus referring to the end of the old conditional land/nation covenant.?
Before answering, please read Adam Clarkes commentary which lists the first century fulfillments and also read how Christ made an association about the sun, moon, stars, fire and smoke with similar literary expressions that were written about the Babylonian desolation.
Originally Posted by Notrash
For those reading this: this is important; Your life is Important.
Which of 'all these things" were not done before and during the final end of the old covenant age in the first century AD.??
Here are their fulfillments.
Note: I dont' agree with every comment Clarke has on this page, but the fulfillment of the signs is historically and categorically confirmed.
Pestilence, Famine, false prophets in Israel,(as the Holy Spirit was leaving the temple and nation) Signs and wonders, False Christs, The fig AND ALL THE TREES (other nations) pushing their leaves against Rome; etc etc..
All fulfilled.
Sun, moon not giving their light; stars was symbolic language given in Isaiah
See, the day of the LORD is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger (Isaiah 13:9, 10, 13).
Yet, this is not the second coming of Christ, nor were any of these signs literally fulfilled in 539; this is simply an apocalyptic way of referring to the eclipse of Babylonian power by the Medes and Persians: See, I will stir up against them the Medes, who do not care for silver and have no delight in gold. Their bows will strike down the young men; they will have no mercy on infants nor will they look with compassion on children. Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians' pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 13:17-19).
Jesus used the verses that the jewish disciples would have associated with the ending of Babylon as he talked with them about the first century "latter end" of the conditional land/nation covenant of Duet 11-32. He did something like this earlier in the Olivet when he spoke of the greatness of tribulation that would never be surpassed. Daniel had used similar words to describe the earlier desolation of Jerusalem by the babylonians saying "for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem". Dan 9.
In like manner, Jesus was associating the language of Daniels statements about the babylonian desolation with Jeruslem so that the disciples would recognize that the 66-73 desolation and seige was going to be similar and even worse tribulation.
If/when one sees and understands that the Creation and the Creator is still GOOD; and the man still retains the image of the Creator AND most importantly, that the olivet discourse was talking about the end of 'that' world... the end of the old covenant age of religion and the temporary pattern and shadow 'religion' of the jews that was given to Moses as a service to all peoples and nations and which confirmed the reality of the "NEW" Everlasting Covenant of Mercy of the Creator for all peoples, then one can begin to ask the Spirit about the fulfillment of the things Christ spoke about.
The 'end' mentioned in Daniel, the Olivet and other places was the "latter end" of the old covenant which was prophecied and promised (Duet 32) when the OC was spoken (Duet 11-32). It had (as prophesied) become a counterfeit religion in itself, just like Babylonian snake religion and the tower of Babel was a false religion. "Babylon" ....Jerusalem.... has fallen.... fallen... just as the wicked witch of the west.
The principles and laws established and upheld by these eternal statutes remain and are upheld by Heaven, but the specific events spoken by Jesus were I believe to that Generation. The dominion of the kingdom of heaven was delivered and established (just as prophesied in Dan 7:27) to those who look to faith in Gods substitution work on the Cross for all in mankind who believe.
In Mark 9, when talking about the establishment of the kingdom of God and talking about his coming in glory, he clarifies 'this generation'...
So when did Christ come with glory..and the kingdom of God present with power?? Could it be as he the Creator first gave premonition in the glory of the cloud formations before he would come "through the minds of the leaders of the enemies" that was prophesied to happen at the end of the old covenant in Deut 32:42??
A question to ask yourself would be how you read these passages.
Do you read the Olivet and other scriptures as some coded words written to you yourself or to our generation to be interpreted; OR do you read them first as an actual historical record of actual conversations and teachings that Christ had with and to historical people of his day and the age that they lived in and which were recorded to be read by other contemporary peoples (as well as observed by us).
If Christ was referring to some future end of world generation, would he not have used the word "that" rather than "this". Would he not have said the generation who sees these signs will not pass....
Would he have emphasised this point?
Again, which of all these things were not fulfilled by the events up to and around 66-73 AD?
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 6th August 2009 at 08:32 AM.
Help me understand the verse that says This generation will not pass away before Jesus returns. How does the Greek roughly translate to our modern language as I have always struggled with this.
I know we are not to know the day or the hour, but notice we could know the season, the generation, year or even month then. Maybe
Hey sis.
This means God would raise up the wicked of that generation that put Jesus to death with the first generation, so they would bend their knee and admit Jesus is Lord.
Help me understand the verse that says This generation will not pass away before Jesus returns. How does the Greek roughly translate to our modern language as I have always struggled with this.
I know we are not to know the day or the hour, but notice we could know the season, the generation, year or even month then. Maybe
Just last year, I did the One-Year-Bible using the New Living Translation (because it was free from my church and because it's a different translation than I usually use). Anyway, when it got time to read this passage, there was a footnote for the word generation in this particular verse. According to the translators of this edition, the word translated for "generation" could also mean "race".
Now this is a rather bif if, but IF it did mean race, then that would put a whole new slant on our understanding, and actually, in my mind, make it easier to understand. Not saying it does mean that, because I don't know Greek. But the possibility has been put out there.
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The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be.
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask.
I want to be good, I do. I just suck at it a lot of the time.
Help me understand the verse that says This generation will not pass away before Jesus returns. How does the Greek roughly translate to our modern language as I have always struggled with this.
I know we are not to know the day or the hour, but notice we could know the season, the generation, year or even month then. Maybe
It means they are going to be raised up for judgment: in a very particular and horrible way.
Jesus said, 'thou you die if you believe in me, you will live'. They did not believe, but they will face judgment.
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