Jesus told His generation that they would not see any signs from heaven. He told them the only sign that they would see was to the sign of Jonas.
But Matthew 24 has > >
"...when ye shall see all these things..."
Luke 21:11
"And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
It is impossible for this to be back in the 1st century A.D.!
"great signs" - from heaven
Jesus told the people of His day > >
Matthew 12:3-40
"...no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"
Matthew 16:3 (people desired a sign from heaven)
"...can not ye discern the signs of the times?"
v4
"...no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas, And he left them, and departed."
Luke 11:29
....This is an evil generation: they seek a sign: and there shall be no sign given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."
------------The time of Matthew 24's signs of the end comes after we first have a time of wars and rumours of wars.
v6
but the end is not yet
Why doesn't that wars and rumours of wars secton bring the end? Because
v7
"For nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom..."
another world war
Help me understand the verse that says This generation will not pass away before Jesus returns. How does the Greek roughly translate to our modern language as I have always struggled with this.
I know we are not to know the day or the hour, but notice we could know the season, the generation, year or even month then. Maybe
MY COMMENTS: My fellow believer in Christ the Lord, I would first of all encourage you to be looking up for the 'rapture', the catching away of the church/body of Christ, meeting the Lord in the air, then being taken to the heavenlies, to ever be with the Lord.
It was Paul's great disire to be caught up to the heavens without dying, and, of course it is ours. There are no prophecies to be fulfilled. It could be at any time when the full number of the nations have come in to the church/body.
Jesus told His generation that they would not see any signs from heaven. He told them the only sign that they would see was to the sign of Jonas.
Jesus told the people of His day > >
Matthew 12:3-40
"...no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"
Matthew 16:3 (people desired a sign from heaven)
"...can not ye discern the signs of the times?"
v4
"...no sign be given unto it,(this generation) but the sign of the prophet Jonas, And he left them, and departed."
Luke 11:29
....This is an evil generation: they seek a sign: and there shall be no sign given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."
------------The time of Matthew 24's signs of the end comes after we first have a time of wars and rumours of wars.
v6
but the end is not yet
Why doesn't that wars and rumours of wars secton bring the end? Because
v7
"For nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom..."
another world war
According to the futurist definition of "this generation"; those who sought a sign and who would be given the sign of the prophet Jonah cannot be referring to people in the generation that was living at that time because "this generation" means a future (to those it was spoken to) end times generation. Thus your meaning of 'this generation' is wrong in one application or the other
The pharisees were seeking more and more "signs" that Christ was the Messiah, but even though he did miracles, signs and wonders, their interpretation, blindness and desire for their own kingdom could not receive and believe in him because many were looking for a national king of the old covenant rather than an Individual King of Everlasting Life of the New Covenant. After his death and resurrection and Christ's message preached again to Judea through the Apostles testimony, many understood and learned his 'sign' confirming himself as Messiah (of all the world). Act 2,Peters sermon.
Your comparison of what the Pharisees were asking of Jesus as a sign confirming his identity versus the time indicator events leading up to his return in power/glory via the close of the old covenant age in 65-73 AD are not comparable. The things mentioned in Matt 24 were not 'signs' given to the last generation of the talmudic Pharisees to confirm his identity; but they were time indicators given to the believing Judean disciples to prepare them for their escape to Pella. Your argument and comparison based on 'signs' being not given to that generation of vipers is flawed.
Wars, rumors of wars, nation against itself.. etc.
From Octavian in 27 BC through most of Nero's reign was a period of Peace that had been so prevalent that it was titled Pax Romana. There had been a period of almost 80 yrs of "Peace" until the wars, rumors of wars, nation and kingdom rising against itself began as as the nation states rose against one another.
Vespacians election to leadership was instrumental in allowing Titus (the prince of Dan 9:26-27) to lead the Roman Army into Judea/Jerusalem as Vespacian turned back to quell the insurrections in Rome.
After 30 BC, the Republic was unified under leadership of Octavian. In 27 BC Octavian was granted the title of Augustus by the Senate. These two dates are considered to mark the end of the Republic and the birth of the Roman Empire. The period of rule by the Caesars was known as the "Pax Augusti" (peace of Augustus), and was the beginning of the era known as the "Pax Romana" (Roman Peace). The next Roman civil war would not be fought until after Nero's suicide in 68 AD, the year before the year of the four emperors.
The forced suicide of emperor Nero, in 68, was followed by a brief period of civil war, the first Roman civil war since Mark Antony's death in 30 BC. Between June of 68 and December of 69, Rome witnessed the successive rise and fall of Galba, Otho and Vitellius until the final accession of Vespasian, first ruler of the Flavian Dynasty. This period of civil war has become emblematic of the cyclic political disturbances in the history of the Roman Empire. The military and political anarchy created by this civil war had serious repercussions, such as the outbreak of the Batavian rebellion.
So again the question is WHICH of the things mentioned in Matt 24 were not fulfilled in the first century? The events listed in Matt 24, Lk 21 etc were time indicators for those believers in Judea to leave the old covenant 'promised land' just before the 'latter end' of that age and world prophesied in Deut 32 would occur as Christ came "through the minds of the leaders of the enemies.. as prophesied in Duet 32:42.
Adam Clarke lists and describes their fulfillment as have many other writers before and during the futurists emphasis of the last 150 yrs.
Again the question is: are we to reject that the Olivet discourse are historically accurate records of the conversations that Christ spoke to his disciples and those followers who were sitting there in 30 AD listening to him? Are we to project those words as if Christ didn't really care about their concerns about fulfilling the ending of the old covenant world and AGE?
How and with what hermeneutic allows for such a gross imposition on the text?
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 27th July 2009 at 07:24 AM.
There are no prophecies to be fulfilled. It could be at any time when the full number of the nations have come in to the church/body.
Greetings Bick.
Please restudy Rom 11. The word 'full number' is a mistranslation. The word should be 'fullness' as used earlier in the chapter and refers to the fullness of Christ being poured out individuals in the nations other than national Israel in order that those elect of remaining national israel were being made jealous unto belief.
Paul was in the time of the last generation of the old covenant spoken of in Duet 32. It is that which he quoted in Romans 10:19 in which (some) Israel would be made jealous by those who were not a people (of God) and by those who were from israel's perspective a 'foolish nation'. What Paul is saying in the ending of Rom 11 is that some of those in remaining national Israel would believe before the end of the old covenant and it's nation in 66-70 AD due to being made jealous of the fullness and blessing of Christ the Spirit being poured out on individuals in the nations that had begun with Cornelius 15 yrs earlier.
Part of those elect of Israel at that time period would come to believe and understand directly because of God's spirit and changed hearts being poured out onto all peoples.
Paul asks the question earlier if since the Gospel message had been spoken and reicieved by many through judea and was now being recieved by those in the nations, had God now turned his back on those in Judea who were now persecuting, killing, ridiculing and ostracizing the jewish believers.
Paul then uses himself as the example of someone who had once persecuted the sect and even participated in the murders saying "may it never be" that God turns his back on those that even then were enemies of christians and persecute the believers in the name of religion. If that were so, Paul himself's election would be voided.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 24th July 2009 at 09:10 PM.
Help me understand the verse that says This generation will not pass away before Jesus returns. How does the Greek roughly translate to our modern language as I have always struggled with this.
I know we are not to know the day or the hour, but notice we could know the season, the generation, year or even month then. Maybe
If you have a spare hour, I gaurentee your mind will be made up on this issue. I too struggled with this verse and many others till I came across this sermon series by Pastor Jonathan Crosby. Question no more the answer is right here please listen to the full sermon and let me know what you think... www.LetGodBeTrue.com - Free Audio Sermons
If you have a spare hour, I gaurentee your mind will be made up on this issue. I too struggled with this verse and many others till I came across this sermon series by Pastor Jonathan Crosby. Question no more the answer is right here please listen to the full sermon and let me know what you think... www.LetGodBeTrue.com - Free Audio Sermons
what's the jist of it? an hour is a long time to sit and listen to someones particular theory.
__________________
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what's the jist of it? an hour is a long time to sit and listen to someones particular theory.
The sermon addresses the subject inquired about, "this generation". It leaves no questions unanswered about the subject and its not based on "theory" but the word of God. Give it a listen you wont be sorry.
For those of you who are somewhat interested to listen to the sermon, please dont post after listening only to five minutes or so. To do so would not do the sermon justuce. Comments made prematurely would hinder the absolute life changing outcome of the subject covered.
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