I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, I've had a long relationship with God, I pray (mainly just giving thanks and asking for forgiveness) every night. I feel like I have a good relationship with him and I like to read the bible often.
I generally read only a couple OT books (Eccl, Kings, Proverbs, sometimes Genesis). Other than that I read primarily the Synoptic Gospels. I rarely read John, as it seems so different than the other three, so I take them as being more accurate. Very rarely I will read Acts or Revelations, but I don't put a lot of stock in them, and I have only read the other NT books once or twice each, I don't really care for them as they seem to me to be more of human interpretations of what Jesus was teaching.
Anyway, back to the main point, like I said I have a great relationship with God, but I never refer to him as "Jesus" and I don't really feel comfortable saying that Jesus is God, it just feels wrong, I don't know how to explain it. But my primary question is this, is there anywhere in the bible where Jesus says that he is God? I mean being completely equal to God. I know he says that he came with authority and was sent by God, but I have heard others say that you must believe that Jesus is God in order to be a Christian.
Also, if you can find somewhere where he says he is God and it is in John, can you give Synoptic Gospel references as well? Please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to argue about this topic, I just want to know for my own personal growth. I don't think I have found anything and it may make me feel better in accepting things if I had some help here.
I'm asking in this forum because you are said to be fundamentalists, so I assume you take your religion very seriously and don't just blindly believe something that someone else told you, you if anyone would know where it would say that in the bible.
You really need the whole Bible, OT, NT, four gospels, the epistles, and Revelation to get the full picture of who Jesus is.
The answer to your question is answered best by John 10:30, where Jesus says "I and My Father are one." The Jews He was speaking to immediately understood that He was saying that He was God, and took up stones to kill Him.
You may not find a direct statement like that in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, but then, it was not the aim of those to point out the deity of Jesus. Matthew wrote presenting Christ as the heir to David's throne, a King. Mark wrote presenting Christ as the Servant. Luke wrote detailing Christ's humanity. John wrote proclaiming Christ's deity.
In the epistles, you get a much more detailed picture of Christ as Savior, some theology about how God declares believers righteous, teachings on Christians should conduct themselves, and glimpses of what is in store for those who believe and those who don't. Many entreaties to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Of course there's much more.
Revelation gives us a picture of Jesus as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Fascinating stuff. I highly recommend it.
And I highly recommend that you get into all of God's Holy Word. Profitable for all kinds of reasons.
__________________ "For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
Thanks for the advice. I have actually read all of the other books in the bible, but I guess that I'm the kind of person who likes to hear something from the horses mouth. Not someone's interpretation of what he was saying a hundred or more years later. I realize that the gospels are second+ hand as well, but at least they are meant to be directly quoting Jesus as he was teaching.
Also in the epistles, it seemed to me like they were focusing on telling people in their letters that Jesus would be right back and that he would be there in their life time and to not marry and to get ready really soon. I didn't seem to be allegorical to mean upon death or anything like that either. So since he still hasn't come back, I assume that they were pretty much wrong. Another reason that I just take them as mens' interpretations and not the words of God/Jesus.
by the way, I'm not trying to argue here to prove a point, I don't claim to be any expert on the bible, I'm just saying what my interpretations are of what I have read and what I feel about it personally.
I was really wanting to see if Jesus actually said that he was God and that we should worship him. It seems to me that if he really claimed to be God and worthy of being worshipped, he would have talked about that, and more than in a single verse. After all, how many times does God say that he is the only god and that he should be worshipped?
Again, I'm not trying to argue a side of any debate, just trying to seek some light here. I don't take it lightly calling someone God and worshiping him.
by the way, I'm not trying to argue here to prove a point, I don't claim to be any expert on the bible, I'm just saying what my interpretations are of what I have read and what I feel about it personally.
I was really wanting to see if Jesus actually said that he was God and that we should worship him. It seems to me that if he really claimed to be God and worthy of being worshipped, he would have talked about that, and more than in a single verse. After all, how many times does God say that he is the only god and that he should be worshipped?
Again, I'm not trying to argue a side of any debate, just trying to seek some light here. I don't take it lightly calling someone God and worshiping him.
I believe there might be a couple of reasons why Jesus didn't come right out, openly and plainly declare himself to be God more often. First, the Jews would not have been accepting of his message if he had openly declared it. They would have been so hung up on that, they wouldn't have even paid attention to the rest of his message. The few times he came close to doing so, they were ready to stone him. His disciples came to realize the fact only after spending years under his tutelage. Second, it wasn't the right time. The purpose of his coming at that time was not to set up the Kingdom, which the people, had they come to believe that he was indeed God, would have forced upon him. He came to die, a sacrifice for all. Therefore, he purposely spoke in parables and withheld certain information.
Also, concerning the other books, don't forget that God has preserved all of it according to his promise, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." (Mt. 24:35) And all of it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. In other words, was is written is the scripture is not of any human interpretation.
2 Pet. 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore-
2 Tim. 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
__________________ "For the word of God is living, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, I've had a long relationship with God, I pray (mainly just giving thanks and asking for forgiveness) every night. I feel like I have a good relationship with him and I like to read the bible often.
I generally read only a couple OT books (Eccl, Kings, Proverbs, sometimes Genesis). Other than that I read primarily the Synoptic Gospels. I rarely read John, as it seems so different than the other three, so I take them as being more accurate. Very rarely I will read Acts or Revelations, but I don't put a lot of stock in them, and I have only read the other NT books once or twice each, I don't really care for them as they seem to me to be more of human interpretations of what Jesus was teaching.
Anyway, back to the main point, like I said I have a great relationship with God, but I never refer to him as "Jesus" and I don't really feel comfortable saying that Jesus is God, it just feels wrong, I don't know how to explain it. But my primary question is this, is there anywhere in the bible where Jesus says that he is God? I mean being completely equal to God. I know he says that he came with authority and was sent by God, but I have heard others say that you must believe that Jesus is God in order to be a Christian.
Also, if you can find somewhere where he says he is God and it is in John, can you give Synoptic Gospel references as well? Please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to argue about this topic, I just want to know for my own personal growth. I don't think I have found anything and it may make me feel better in accepting things if I had some help here.
I'm asking in this forum because you are said to be fundamentalists, so I assume you take your religion very seriously and don't just blindly believe something that someone else told you, you if anyone would know where it would say that in the bible.
Thanks!
-- Rocky
No offense, but you are basically disallowing the books that state most explicitly that Jesus is YHWH, "I AM" (Ex. 3:14), the God of the Old Testament.
IMO, the single most explicit and forceful declarations are in John 8:
8:24 (NAB) -- "That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
8:24 (ISV) -- "That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."
Joh 8:56-59 (NAB) Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. (57) So the Jews said to him, You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham? (58) Jesus said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM. (59) So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.
Joh 8:56-59 (ISV) Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad." (57) Then the Jews asked him, "You are not even 50 years old, yet you have seen Abraham?" (58) Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!" (59) At this, they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
Assuming John recorded reliably, the Jews there clearly understood Jesus to be claiming divinity, and wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
In another of the books you don't like, Revelation, we find that in 1:8, the "Lord God" is the one titled "Alpha and Omega." Later, in 22:13, Jesus carries that title.
Various places, including Acts 2 and Rom. 10, quote OT passages referring to the LORD, and apply them to Jesus -- but of course, you don't like Acts or Paul's letters.
As far as the Synoptics go, Matt. 12:28 and Luke 6:5 imply Jesus used the title "Lord of the Sabbath" to claim divinity; but Mark 2:28 seems to adjust things to give a different emphasis.
Matt. 26:64 and Mark 14:62 also show Jesus making remarks that certainly sound like claims of divinity -- especially the "I am" in the latter -- and which His immediate audience apparently regarded as such.
__________________ "I reject your reality and substitute my own." -- Mythbuster Adam Savage
"Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence." -- ComputerGear T-Shirt
"Well THAT was a slap and a tickle!" -- William the Bloody
Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?
I would say that picking and choosing which parts of Gods word you choose to read are counterproductive to your ability to see what God wants you to see.
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
I believe there might be a couple of reasons why Jesus didn't come right out, openly and plainly declare himself to be God more often. First, the Jews would not have been accepting of his message if he had openly declared it. They would have been so hung up on that, they wouldn't have even paid attention to the rest of his message. The few times he came close to doing so, they were ready to stone him. His disciples came to realize the fact only after spending years under his tutelage. Second, it wasn't the right time. The purpose of his coming at that time was not to set up the Kingdom, which the people, had they come to believe that he was indeed God, would have forced upon him. He came to die, a sacrifice for all. Therefore, he purposely spoke in parables and withheld certain information.
Also, concerning the other books, don't forget that God has preserved all of it according to his promise, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." (Mt. 24:35) And all of it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. In other words, was is written is the scripture is not of any human interpretation.
2 Pet. 1
16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore-
2 Tim. 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Thanks, you've made good points. I will look more into some of the epistles, I actually read from 2nd Peter what you were quoting there this morning.
Joh 8:56-59 (ISV) Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad." (57) Then the Jews asked him, "You are not even 50 years old, yet you have seen Abraham?" (58) Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!" (59) At this, they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
Assuming John recorded reliably, the Jews there clearly understood Jesus to be claiming divinity, and wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
Thanks, I'm familiar with that quote from John, I primarily wanted to know if there was anywhere else he said something like that, but it makes sense that he wouldn't want to focus on that because others wouldn't stay around and listen to his teachings. I can understand that he would have sent his apostles after him to teach more about it.
Thanks everyone for your guidance. I will study some more on it.
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