Firstly, it really is imortant to read the whole bible. You will learn so many things and quite often begin to understand what you have already read even more clearly.
One thing I have to say about John is that he certainly can't be left out. The focus that John had in his recording of Jesus' life was, instead of recording what he did, recording why he did it. He doesn't record any of Jesus' parables and records only seven of his miracles. He does record, however, why Jesus came to die, his divinity, and many other personal insights. Overall I see the book of John as a much more up-close and personal view of Jesus through the eyes of John.
When it comes to Jesus' divinity though, there are definately verses that would tell us that in the other three gospels. In Matthew 2:9, 14:33, and 28:9 he is worshipped, which points towards the fact that he is God. Matthew 28:18-19 tells us that he has all authority and also puts him equal to both God the Father and the Holy Spirit. In Luke 24:45-47, Jesus proclaims that he has the power to forgive sin. In fact, the term 'Christ' tells us that he is the prophesied messiah.
One piece of evidence is the fact that the reason he was killed was for proclaiming that he was God. Verses like Luke 22:67-71 show us that the people of the time clearly understood that he was saying that he was God.
One of the most straight forward proclamations of Jesus as God is in Mark 8:29-30 "And He asked them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Peter answered him, 'You are the Christ.' And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him."
By him commanding them not to tell anyone and not denying it, he was essentially telling them that Peter was right. I don't think he wanted the news to spread around too much because he still had work to do before he was killed. Adoniram did a wonderful job of explaining this.
There are certainly other verses to look at which proclaim Jesus as God, but I personally find these ones to be very compelling. I would also like to just say again is to not cut out certain books of the bible.
Anyways, I hope I've helped answer some of your questions. I love learning about God and what the bible has to say so it always pays off when I can also help someone else out at the same time. There are certainly people here with much more experience and knowledge than I have though, haha. God bless!
So since he still hasn't come back, I assume that they were pretty much wrong. Another reason that I just take them as mens' interpretations and not the words of God/Jesus.
I am not sure how "orthodox" it is but my understanding has always been that he definitely did come back, I think he said "the kingdom of god is within you". The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, too. IMO, The Kingdom of God is here right now though it is "hidden".
__________________
Deyr fé, deyja frændr, deyr sjálfr et sama; ek veit einn, at aldri deyr: dómr of dauðan hvern.
Cattle die, kinsmen die the self must also die;I know one thing which never dies: the reputation of each dead man.
I am not sure how "orthodox" it is but my understanding has always been that he definitely did come back, I think he said "the kingdom of god is within you". The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, too. IMO, The Kingdom of God is here right now though it is "hidden".
I don't think that's what he was talking about. He lists of many things that are supposed to happen on tht day; People will claim to be Jesus, wars will take place, nations and kigdoms will fight, there will be earthquakes and famines, false christs and profets will perform signs and wonders, the sun will darken and the moon will not shine, the stars will be falling from heaven and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then Jesus will appear in power and in glory sending out the angels to gather his elect and bring them to heaven. I may have missed or skipped over something in there, but I think I've made my point.
All of that does not seem to have passed.
Now, I have a different opinion than some of what Jesus means when he says, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." The word 'generation' here in the original greek was 'γενεά' or 'genea'. Genea does have the meaning of 'generation', but it may also mean an 'age' or a 'time'. To Jesus, I don't see why his view of an age or a time would be limited to everyone else's. He is eternal, so he doesn't always go by our standards. When he said 'genea' I think he was just talking about the time between his ascention and when he returns whatever amount of time that would be.
When we read just a few more verses later, Jesus says, "But concerning that day or tat hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32) He tells us that HE doesn't even know when it will be that he returns. What this tells me is that he would not have given a limit or a time when he would return as in limiting it to one generation of people. To me this suggests that he would be referring to the general age spanning from his ascention to his return.
By studying this statement, I've come to the conclusion that Jesus was saying that the world as we know it would not come to an end until we saw and experienced the things he spoke of.
I have no way to prove that 100% thoguh, so feel free to disagree!
John 8:56-59 (NASB) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." [57] The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" [58] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." [59] Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Why did they pick up stones to throw at him? Because he had applied the term used for God "I AM" to himself. He is the second party of the Godhead (Trinity) - he was claiming to be God.
John 12:44-45 44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
Isaiah 45-21-23
21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A ust God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
John 14:9
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 20:26-28
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
__________________ Prophetic Seasons where Jesus really is Lord
I am not sure how "orthodox" it is but my understanding has always been that he definitely did come back, I think he said "the kingdom of god is within you". The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, too. IMO, The Kingdom of God is here right now though it is "hidden".
If he did comeback then the whole world would have seen it as well as heard it.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:39
Yeshua HaMashiach saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Yeshua HaMashiach, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Act 1:11
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Yeshua HaMashiach shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Thesselonians 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7
Also when he comes all of heaven and earth will face the wrath and destruction:
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Peter 3:10
Therefore he has not returned yet.
And your statement of the kingdom is within you is but only a metaphor, because thenew kingdom will be real:
For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Hebrews 13:14
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my 'Elohim, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my 'Elohim, and the name of the city of my 'Elohim, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my 'Elohim: and [I will write upon him] my new name. Revelation 3:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from 'Elohim out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from 'Elohim, Revelation 21:10
<snip> Isaiah 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Original Poster:
This is a critical verse. There are some others in the Old Testament which confirm this.
However, the person of "God" typically in Scripture denotes to God the Father and Christ as the Son of God.
Jesus says to call no one "Teacher" but Jesus, and no one "father" nor "master" but God.
You can yet see that the Spirit is alternatively called: the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus through Scripture.
This verse shows how Jesus is God in the flesh, God incarnate, yet "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped".
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
And the following verse explains the difference between Christ and God, in a sense, further:
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Yet, Jesus is God, even one with the Father, called "Mighty God" and so on. So how can this separation be?
It is really simple: Jesus is in a single point in time and space, as we are. God the Father is everywhere and controls everything: remember, Jesus pointed out how God knew the number of hairs on everyone's head and made sure even the birds had food and shelter.
When Jesus is 'made known from Heaven' 'we will be like Him'. In Scripture Jesus calls us "brothers" and "sisters", though He is the Lord and "firstborn from the dead".
We do not pray to Jesus, we pray to the Father, as Jesus taught us to pray:
'Our Father who is in Heaven...'
But we can not pray truly unless we pray through Jesus, by being born again, for it is the very Spirit of Jesus which intercedes on our behalf.
No one is a child of God unless they are born of God, through the baptism of the Spirit, then we are as children of God: yet imperfect, and 'as seeing through a glass darkly' until that day.
Therefore, you will find through out the New Testament the wording "of Christ and God".
You do see, however, in Revelation, for instance that Jesus 'sits on the throne' of the Father.
Revelation 3
'21...I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.'
I should note, however, as I have seen this:
If one does not confess themselves as a Christian they should not claim to understand that which they are not given. They should not revile that which they do not understand.
Last edited by freeport; 4th August 2009 at 02:34 PM.
I'm thinking of becoming a Christian, I've had a long relationship with God, I pray (mainly just giving thanks and asking for forgiveness) every night. I feel like I have a good relationship with him and I like to read the bible often.
I generally read only a couple OT books (Eccl, Kings, Proverbs, sometimes Genesis). Other than that I read primarily the Synoptic Gospels. I rarely read John, as it seems so different than the other three, so I take them as being more accurate. Very rarely I will read Acts or Revelations, but I don't put a lot of stock in them, and I have only read the other NT books once or twice each, I don't really care for them as they seem to me to be more of human interpretations of what Jesus was teaching.
Anyway, back to the main point, like I said I have a great relationship with God, but I never refer to him as "Jesus" and I don't really feel comfortable saying that Jesus is God, it just feels wrong, I don't know how to explain it. But my primary question is this, is there anywhere in the bible where Jesus says that he is God? I mean being completely equal to God. I know he says that he came with authority and was sent by God, but I have heard others say that you must believe that Jesus is God in order to be a Christian.
Also, if you can find somewhere where he says he is God and it is in John, can you give Synoptic Gospel references as well? Please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to argue about this topic, I just want to know for my own personal growth. I don't think I have found anything and it may make me feel better in accepting things if I had some help here.
I'm asking in this forum because you are said to be fundamentalists, so I assume you take your religion very seriously and don't just blindly believe something that someone else told you, you if anyone would know where it would say that in the bible.
Thanks!
-- Rocky
How about if God the Father states that Jesus is God? Would that satisfy you?
I am not sure how "orthodox" it is but my understanding has always been that he definitely did come back, I think he said "the kingdom of god is within you". The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, too. IMO, The Kingdom of God is here right now though it is "hidden".
This goes off-topic a bit, but I will bring it back on topic at the end:
Jesus said the Kingdom of God comes 'so men do not see it by careful observation'. In context He was speaking of the Second Coming. (Look at the surrounding verses.)
Jesus also clearly explained that He was sending the Apostles "the Spirit", as you can see in John. He specifically stated that "if I do not go away, the Truth can not come", in context, speaking of the Holy Spirit.
And He pointed out "the Truth will convict of righteousness, for I am not here, but in Heaven".
Therefore, the Holy Spirit given to the Saints was not the return of Jesus.
... as for men who study Scripture but do not go to God, on these matters, thinking they understand it all without asking questions, saying, "I know, I know" when they do not know -- God said to Jeremiah, "Ask and I will give you great answers, things unfathomable which you did not know".
So be wary of those who speak of the Second Coming implying Scripture which is not there.
'Of that day and hour no one knows, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father'.
Notice here, again the division between the Person of God the Son and the Person of God the Father.
People are hypocritical to pretend they do not understand such matters.
This is why Isaiah says of Jesus 'he is marred beyond all human likeness'. They suppose by creating fantasies of Jesus which fit the ideals of their own heart they might thereby be able to do their own will, instead of the will of God.
In this we also know Jesus had his own will, and asked 'not that my will be done but your will' at the rock where he shed tears of blood.
As for the return of Jesus, Revelation 19 speaks of this clearly:
11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Note that it states 'He has a name on him written which no man knows but he himself'.
Revelation speaks much of this at the first of the book and the end of it.
Why not just say "Jesus comes back and everyone starts to wear Jesus tshirts", why are these words?
These things therefore are encased in mystery which is not given to man to know.
(Zech speaks of that secret name for the inscription on the stone.)
Men like to brag of their opinions and think by speaking loudly or being arrogant and full of slander that might make their rebellion worthwhile.
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