The Bible doesn't say that Mary was sinless. It says she was a virgin. If she was born in the family line of Adam she had his sin just like everybody else.
Except for Paul saying all have fallen short and sinned [altho he didnt name Mary to the Church he was writing to] it doesn't say Mary sinned.
All have fallen short - but yet - yet Mary was choosen to be the bearer of the Savior. And she did the Father's Will perfectly...for Jesus said she was Blessed because she did the will of the Father.
However, since sin does follow the bloodline of the head of the house (family), when a man and woman are married the two become one flesh and the bride takes on the family name of the husband (head). She is now bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and she is of his family line now and guilty of all the sins of his bloodline. Their offspring also carry the same family name, and sin, since they were created from that which carried that name and sin. If the root is holy then so are the branches, but if the root is corrupt then the branches will be also.
According to the beginning when prophecying the Christ to come. Genesis 3:15 states the woman and her seed [Jesus] would have complete seperation from evil...and sin. Which is what the serpent [satan] represented. And which is what enmity means.
Since God--Who Fathered Jesus--was sinless, His Bloodline, and Family Name, are pure. Jesus was born without sin because His Father (Head) was without sin and Mary had nothing to do with it. Mary's sin couldn't have any bearing on Jesus because Jesus wasn't of her familyline but of God's familyline.
The Father made all of man, but we all have sin.
Jesus is God and as such choose and created His Mother without sin.
Giving her graces to keep her undefiled above others...
I mean for real, this is HIS Mother we are talking about.
Not just someone He liked - - - but someone He created for this purpose.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (Amplified Bible)
3)But I want you to know and realize that Christ is the Head of every man, the head of a woman is her husband, and the Head of Christ is God.
Blessings
Alan
AND...?
She was His Mother, not His wife.
The Holy Spirit was her Spouse.
He is above His Mother - but He loved her and honored Her as HE [being God] commanded mankind to do.
Honor thy father and mother.
If He honored her above all, and kept her free from sin, who are we to suggest it was impossible for Him to do..?
Originally Posted by WarriorAngel
With God nothing is impossible.
The actual name in Greek is unusual...and it renders her condition - presaved - according to the past and present tense of the unsual name Gabriel gave her.
Caire, kecaritomene! kecharitomene [kecaritomene]
sHE WAS GREETED WITH THIS - IT MEANS A PAST GRACE AND A PAST SAVING WAS DONE TO HER.
sHE WAS TROUBLED BY THIS GREETING BECAUSE SHE WAS HUMBLE..
[oops locked caps - sorry]
And she was troubled because she didnt understand what it meant she was saved previously.
Originally Posted by ContraMundum
Mary preserved from sin:
"For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God;239 and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’" (Justin Martyr c.160)
"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.” (Luk_1:38) But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” (Gen_2:25) inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age,112 and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.....And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen....And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith. (Irenaeus c. 180)
"That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled, — was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man.32 For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness33 (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first created man (protoplasti) receives amendment by the correction of the First-begotten, and the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death." (ibid)
Mary is compared to the immaculate Eve.
Eve fell, Mary did not.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
The Church teaches very clearly that The Lady Mary was Immaculate, that is free
from sin! It doesn't teach that she was immaculately conceived, but through the agency of the Holy Ghost and the Seven Ecumenical Councils that Mary was freed from sin.
The Third Council at Ephesus in 431, taught that Mary was the Theotokos, or Mother of God
The Second Council of Constantinople 381 AD, twice refered to The Lady Mary as ever Virgin and the
Seventh Council, defined Mary as both Spotless and Immaculate.
For Traditional Anglicans and other Catholics at least, this is the catholic faith in its definition of Mary. We must remember that the Seven Councils, the seven pillars of the Church have the duty of ,"Completing, explaining and interpreting Holy Tradition through the medium of the Holy Councils". We ignore them at our peril.
__________________ All profess that there are seven Holy and Ecumenical Councils and these are the seven pillars of the Faith of the Divine Word on which He erected His Holy Mansion, the Catholic and Ecumenical Church!
[John 2nd, Russian Metropolitan. 1080.]
(Sorry that I missed seeing this post for so long.)
Originally Posted by Wigglesworth
The flesh of Christ was provided through the body of His mother. Mary's mother did not provide the flesh of Christ. Since Mary received the grace to remain sinless, she was a pure vessel regardless of the condition of her own mother.
Yes, that's part of the speculation that underlies the dogma. The main thing to keep in mind is whether one is going to be guided by the word of God or by rationalizations and hunches (God couldn't have an ordinary woman be his Earthly mother, could he??
Well, yes, he could.
God can do anything, so why not this?
God can do anything. The question is "Did he, in this case?"
Mary would have been impure!
Christ chose to be one is his own creatures. Do you really think he needed something close to a demi god to be his mother in order to keep from being contaminated? LOL)
It is an important fact that Mary was sinless from the time of her conception
It's not a "fact." It's a theory, to put it as kindly as possible. That doesn't mean that I object to you believing it, if you need that. I just think that we need to be straighforward and admit that there is no reason for it to have been real nor any evidence that it is. If there are "questions about the Immacuate Conception" idea, then they can be answered. That's different from testimonials from those who believe in it.
Peace be with you.
And with thy spirit, Wigglesworth.
.
Last edited by Albion; 21st September 2009 at 04:31 PM.
The Church teaches very clearly that The Lady Mary was Immaculate, that is free from sin! It doesn't teach that she was immaculately conceived, but through the agency of the Holy Ghost and the Seven Ecumenical Councils that Mary was freed from sin.
Well, of course, the largest church in the world teaches that she WAS conceived immaculately. That's why it's called the Immaculate CONCEPTION, not the Immaculate Lifestory.
The Third Council at Ephesus in 431, taught that Mary was the Theotokos, or Mother of God The Second Council of Constantinople 381 AD, twice refered to The Lady Mary as ever Virgin
Those are other and different doctrines about Mary that some churches hold to.
For Traditional Anglicans and other Catholics at least, this is the catholic faith in its definition of Mary.
For Traditional Anglicans, Mary was conceived just like the rest of us. Some Anglicans of the "Back to Rome" movement that began in the 19th century consider this and other Roman Catholic teachings about Mary to be "pious opinions," i.e. optional and personal beliefs.
[quote=Albion;53002095]Well, of course, the largest church in the world teaches that she WAS conceived immaculately. That's why it's called the Immaculate CONCEPTION, not the Immaculate Lifestory. [quote]
[b]But Catholic teaching .i.e. The Teaching of the fathers through the Councils tell us something other than the ,'largest church in the world!' Whom you believe is entirely up to you. Further, Anglican Traditionalists also hold to the beliefs and teachings of the Fathers in Council and ,indeed, were in at the beginning.Why then should we change now?
__________________ All profess that there are seven Holy and Ecumenical Councils and these are the seven pillars of the Faith of the Divine Word on which He erected His Holy Mansion, the Catholic and Ecumenical Church!
[John 2nd, Russian Metropolitan. 1080.]
[quote=luckyfredsdad;53139136][quote=Albion;53002095]Well, of course, the largest church in the world teaches that she WAS conceived immaculately. That's why it's called the Immaculate CONCEPTION, not the Immaculate Lifestory.
[b]But Catholic teaching .i.e. The Teaching of the fathers through the Councils tell us something other than the ,'largest church in the world!' Whom you believe is entirely up to you. Further, Anglican Traditionalists also hold to the beliefs and teachings of the Fathers in Council and ,indeed, were in at the beginning.Why then should we change now?
__________________ All profess that there are seven Holy and Ecumenical Councils and these are the seven pillars of the Faith of the Divine Word on which He erected His Holy Mansion, the Catholic and Ecumenical Church!
[John 2nd, Russian Metropolitan. 1080.]
Mary is compared to the immaculate Eve.
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