Good ladies and gentlemen, I pose thee a question.

Dirk Gently · #1 9th July 2009, 02:35 AM

Good ladies and gentlemen of the christian forums, I would like to pose you all a question. Well it's more like a series of questions, but before I ask them, I would like to know that the people answering it fit some terms.

Such as;

You believe in life after death, including Heaven and Hell.
You believe Heaven entails eternal paradise, and Hell entails eternal damnation.
You believe God is omnibenevolent or all loving.
You believe God is omniscient or all knowing.
You believe God is omnipotent or all powerful.
And you believe God has a plan for us.
(I think that's it, but I may have forgotten one or two)

So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

EDIT: I'm new to the forums, and I'm not sure if this is right section for this thread. If a moderator or admin knows where this thread is supposed to go, could you please move it? Thank you.

MrPolo · #2 9th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Yes, murder is immoral (barring some extenuating circumstance like self-defense, being a soldier, etc...).

msortwell · #3 10th July 2009, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dirk Gently

Good ladies and gentlemen of the christian forums, I would like to pose you all a question. Well it's more like a series of questions, but before I ask them, I would like to know that the people answering it fit some terms.

Such as;

You believe in life after death, including Heaven and Hell.
You believe Heaven entails eternal paradise, and Hell entails eternal damnation.
You believe God is omnibenevolent or all loving.
You believe God is omniscient or all knowing.
You believe God is omnipotent or all powerful.
And you believe God has a plan for us.
(I think that's it, but I may have forgotten one or two)

So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

EDIT: I'm new to the forums, and I'm not sure if this is right section for this thread. If a moderator or admin knows where this thread is supposed to go, could you please move it? Thank you.

Depending upon what you mean by “all loving” I may be disqualified from answering your question. There are acts and the perpetrators of certain acts that God hates.

Prov 6:16-19
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. KJV

There are also some persons that God hated even before they were born.

Rom 9:10-13
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
NKJV

It then seems readily apparent that God is not “all loving.”

AmericanCatholic · #4 11th July 2009, 01:35 PM

It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

msortwell · #5 11th July 2009, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by AmericanCatholic

It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

I have to admit that I cannot tell if you are trying to amuse, edify, or confuse.

Submerged06 · #6 23rd July 2009, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by AmericanCatholic

It seems as if God hates hate; because if he had loved hate, he would be hate and not love, and therefore I think it is safe to conclude that God is perfectly loving and therefore cannot love hate.

But if God hated hate, then he would have to hate himself for having hatred, which is not possible. Therefore he must not hate hate.

Since everything God does is good, then not hating hate must also be good. Therefore, there must be something which is good to hate -- otherwise hating would be necessarily bad (since there would be no objects that could be rightfully hated) and God would be evil for hating when there was nothing for which it was good to hate.

I can thus conclude that there is something in existence in which it is good to hate. Once we define what that is we're in business

I guess this is as good of a first post to these forums as any

wayseer · #7 23rd July 2009, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Dirk Gently

So here's the first one of my questions;

Do you believe murder is immoral?

I guess you are arguing that murder is a moral act and should be promoted for the sake of Christ.

Care to explain?

Submerged06 · #8 23rd July 2009, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by wayseer

I guess you are arguing that murder is a moral act and should be promoted for the sake of Christ.

Care to explain?

He may not be arguing that it is a moral act per se -- or, at least, not a moral act in every situation. He probably is wondering if it is wrong in every situation or if there are allowable situations for it (while still being wrong most of the time).

I'm not sure if he is addressing murder vs. killing (i.e., cold-blooded, undeserved killing versus self-defense, warfare, etc.) though.

wayseer · #9 23rd July 2009, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Submerged06

He may not be arguing that it is a moral act per se -- or, at least, not a moral act in every situation. He probably is wondering if it is wrong in every situation or if there are allowable situations for it (while still being wrong most of the time).

I'm not sure if he is addressing murder vs. killing (i.e., cold-blooded, undeserved killing versus self-defense, warfare, etc.) though.

Let's wait to see if he returns.

tansy · #10 23rd July 2009, 09:58 AM

Yes..that's what I wondered...there is a difference I think between killing and murder
...but how do you define which is which. That is of course, presumably why in law, there are things like manslaughter, 1st degree murder etc etc.
Perhaps you couldn define exactly what you mean?

Also another aspect is suicide which in the German at least (Selbstmorder), literally means self-murder...can that be considered immoral..and in what circumstances?