A rational look at the law.

Cribstyl · #11 10th July 2009, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by RND

Insults? Brother, I just offered you some friendly advice.

Don't go into a Jewish or Messianic forum here at CF or anywhere else and spout this stuff....you could be severely admonished by people that have vast amounts more knowledge about this subject than you do. That's all I'm saying.

And I guess this means

you have Parkinsons desease.

For example, you said Exodus 12 is talking about the "passover." That is indeed one component, one aspect of the feast of unleavened bread which is also prominently discussed in Exodus 12. So Exodus 12 is not "just about the passover."

Okay...but where are your ten commandment being commanded? Have you ever used these verses to present the law??/

This chapter is proof of why so many people get the "was Jesus killed on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday" argument messed up.

Talk about ducking issues........

Well, that isn't entirely true at all. Moses was given a verbal instruction by God and was no where told to make a written law that was specific only for strangers. That one passover law was to be the same for both Hebrew and stranger. One law. No playing favorites.

Hopefully we can talk about this one new issue you now raise up before you address at least 1 of my OP questions which are numbered in the first few posts.....Is that a reasonable agreement?

RND · #12 10th July 2009, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

And I guess this means you have Parkinsons desease.

No, it means I was laughing as I wrote what I wrote. I'm sorry you consider it an insult but it wasn't. Grow a thicker skin.

Okay...but where are your ten commandment being commanded? Have you ever used these verses to present the law??/

Yes, I have as a matter of fact. Will you acknowledge the the word "law" in Exodus 12:49 is "Torah", which, properly understood means one of two things: The Decalogue or the Pentateuch?

Until you are ready to acknowledge that there can be no movement forward.

Talk about ducking issues........

Ducking? No, I'm bringing more to consider. Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn't have lamb that that first "passover" meal?

Hopefully we can talk about this one new issue you now raise up before you address at least 1 of my OP questions which are numbered in the first few posts.....Is that a reasonable agreement?

Crib, the points you brought up in the first part of this thread I won't be addressing until there is much clarity brought into this thread. You have a skewed understanding of what "one law" means. You state that it was just for the strangers that would take the passover but clearly that isn't the case. It's one law for everyone - Hebrew (homeborn) and the stranger. It's kind of like the "naturalization" laws that an alien must submit to in order to become a citizen

As a Messanic that I church with has taught me once a stranger was circumcised and ate the passover they were as much an Israelite as a native born Hebrew.

Have you ever wondered Crib why Caleb means "dog?"

AzA · #13 10th July 2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by RND

Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn't have lamb that that first "passover" meal?

Are you claiming that all that was on the table was juice and flatbread?

That would be rather bold.

RND · #14 10th July 2009, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by AzA

Are you claiming that all that was on the table was juice and flatbread?

That would be rather bold.

Yes, that's what I am claiming.

AzA · #15 10th July 2009, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by RND

Yes, that's what I am claiming.

Fascinating.

Cribstyl · #16 15th July 2009, 05:02 PM

Gen(9)Exd(18)Lev(18)Num(10)Deu(24)Jos(8)Jdg(7)Rth(17)1Sa(9)1Ki(1)2Ki(11)1Ch(4)2Ch(17)Ezr(8)Neh(21)Est(5)Job(1)Psa(37)Pro(13)Isa(11)Jer(12)Lam(1)Eze(4)Dan(6)Hsa(3)Amo(1)Mic(2)Hab(1)Zep(1)Hag(1)Zec(1)Mal(5)Mat(10)Luk(11)Jhn(14)Act(21)Rom(52)1Cr(11)Gal(25)Eph(1)Phl(3)1Ti(3)Tts(1)Hbr(12)Jam(7)1Jo(1)

Exd 24:12And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

When I ask myself; If God gave "the law" in Ex 20 why am I now looking beyond that chapter20 for the initial giving of the law?

Answer: The covenant was the ten commandment.

The explanation I find is that God made a covenant with the COI and within the covenant are commandments, laws, statutes, and ordinances.

Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:

Exd 24:3Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, "All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!"
Exd 24:4 Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
Exd 24:5He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD.
Exd 24:6Moses took half of the blood and put {it} in basins, and the {other} half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Exd 24:7Then he took the book of the covenant and read {it} in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"
Exd 24:8So Moses took the blood and sprinkled {it} on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."

It appear that what is called the book of the convenant contains Moses writings of the voice of God spoken from Sinai. It included ordinances statute and the law. It appears that Ex 20 through Ex24 are were written in the book covenant which was sealed with blood.

Some key details are restated by Moses in Deut 4 and 5.

Deu 4:7"For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the LORD our God whenever we call on Him?
Deu 4:8"Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?

Moses said the "whole law" are statutes and judgments from God.

Deu 4:9"Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons.
Deu 4:10"{Remember} the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.'
Deu 4:11"You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the {very} heart of the heavens: darkness, cloud and thick gloom.
Deu 4:12"Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form--only a voice.
Deu 4:13"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, {that is,} the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

God's covenant is the 10 commandments, Exd 24:8

Deu 4:39"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Deu 4:40"So you shall keep His statutes and His commandments which I am giving you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may live long on the land which the LORD your God is giving you for all time."
Deu 4:41Then Moses set apart three cities across the Jordan to the east,
Deu 4:42that a manslayer might flee there, who unintentionally slew his neighbor without having enmity toward him in time past; and by fleeing to one of these cities he might live:
Deu 4:43Bezer in the wilderness on the plateau for the Reubenites, and Ramoth in Gilead for the Gadites, and Golan in Bashan for the Manassites.

Deu 4:44Now this is the law which Moses set before the sons of Israel;
Deu 4:45these are the testimonies and the statutes and the ordinances which Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, when they came out from Egypt,

Here Moses calls the law...testimonies, statutes and ordinances.

Cribstyl · #17 16th July 2009, 03:27 PM

For those who think that the law was given before the flood. What langauge was it written in? When did early man learn how to read?
Does human history have writtings or drawing to support the history of languages?

AzA · #18 16th July 2009, 08:50 PM

Law does not have to be "written" to be "given." Even in European history, where some classes have been literate for several centuries, codified law is a recent innovation.

NaLuvena · #19 19th July 2009, 04:17 AM

The 1st Law.....

Genesis 1:28

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Stravinsk · #20 19th July 2009, 08:22 AM

I don't have the energy to get into this tonight...but I did want to respond to this first question:

1. Where can we first find what is called "God's law" in the bible?

Strictly, in the Garden of Eden. The first command was obedience. Though the "fruit" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not defined, Adam and Eve were told not to partake in it. Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden lest they eat of the tree of the "tree of life" and live forever in their sinful state.

Yet the man who obeys the law is likened unto a tree:

Psalm 1:1-3 KJV Psalm 1:1 ¶ Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Proverbs 3:1 KJV Proverbs 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments...

after describing the benefits of the law(wisdom that comes from following it) in the following verses, we find this:

Proverbs 3:18 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

This is mirrored even in Revelations:

Revelation 22:14 14 ¶ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Aside from blessing the seventh day in Creation, the details of the law and the beginning of those details is given to Israel before the formal giving of the law on Mt Sinai:

Exodus 16:4 4 ¶ Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

and a little later...

Exodus 16:23 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Notice this is before the formal giving of the law written on stone by God's finger. The Sabbath was the Test command, so " that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." It indicates that the law was in effect even before it was formally known or written down.

The law is eternal, as God is eternal:

God: Genesis 21:33
Law: Psalms 111:7,8

The law is righteousness and Truth, as God is righteousness and Truth:

God: Exodus 9:27
Law: Psalms 19:9, 119:172, 119:142,151

The covenant(the 10 commandments) are unchangeable nor will be abolished:

Isaiah 51:6
Psalm 89:34