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27th July 2009, 11:39 AM
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Reps: 18,944,763,352,946,140 (power: 18,944,763,352,955) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity  Ordination of gentiles is in Sacred Tradition which comes from the same deposit of faith that Jesus imparted to the apostles. But by contrast, women's ordination is not found anywhere in either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition.
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"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right." -Thomas Paine.
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27th July 2009, 01:12 PM
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Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity You argued that the Church was against the casting of lots in Acts 1:26. The Catholic Church is not against what the apostles did in Acts 1:26, and you can't show that she is or has ever been against it. Falsely saying that someone is going against the word of God is a serious offense, especially when this false charge is against the same Church that was founded by none other than Christ Himself. So admit that you have borne false witness against the Catholic Church, and repent.
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Where did I post that the Roman Catholic Church is against the casting of lots. I honestly don't remember posting that. All I can remember posting it is that they don't use it and it is the only example given in Scripture. For that matter Jesus only appointed 12 Apostles why more? Jesus only appointed Jewish men why Gentiles? Do you see how arguments from silence work? Jesus told the Apostles to sell their extra cloaks and buy swords why not require each Bishop to do the same. For that matter Jesus didn't say an awful lot of stuff that the Roman Catholic Church does why do they have authority to do these things but not ordain women?
I did not commit false witness so no repentance is necessary. And I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
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27th July 2009, 01:14 PM
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Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity Why would God tell Adam and Eve that they can partake of everything in the Garden of Eden except for one tree with a forbidden fruit? Do you find that "laughable" too? I don't know if you realize it, but your problem with this is actually with Jesus and the apostles who only chose men for ordination.
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So you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literal?
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
Last edited by No Swansong; 27th July 2009 at 01:23 PM.
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27th July 2009, 01:19 PM
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Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity Jesus received all authority from the Father in Heaven, but does that authority include authority to contradict the will of the Father? Of course not. That authority means that when the apostles heard Jesus, they heard the Father, just as when the Catholic Church speaks, we hear Jesus.
According to the Roman Catholic Church which of course is convenient. The Mormons believe that their 12 Elders also speak for God why not believe them? "You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107
It's called the Deposit of Faith that was imparted from Christ to the apostles and to their successors via the Holy Spirit through something called Sacred Tradition. To even begin to understand this concept, one has to believe that the Church is divine and not a mere man-made institution.
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I am quote familiar with Roman Catholic doctrine as one of my degrees is in Roman Catholic Theology. Of course one must believe the Roman Catholic Church to be the Apostolic Church to accept that they have possession of the deposit of faith. I am convinced that they are not.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
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27th July 2009, 11:58 PM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by No Swansong Where did I post that the Roman Catholic Church is against the casting of lots. I honestly don't remember posting that. All I can remember posting it is that they don't use it and it is the only example given in Scripture. You tried to make a comparison to what the Church says about so called women's ordination and casting of lots done in the book of Acts when there is no comparison. The Church says that women can't be priests, but the Church doesn't say that casting of lots is wrong. And for the third time, casting of lots done in Acts is similar to the process of how the Pope gets elected. How do you reconcile believing that women can be ordained when the Sacred Tradition, which is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error, has always been universally held throughout the whole Church east and west that they can't be priests? Do you reject Sacred Tradition? If so, what do you base your Christian beliefs on? Remember that we only know that the Bible is the Bible because of the authority of the Catholic Church to determine the canon of scripture. Also how do you reconcile belief in women's ordination with the Bible saying that the man is the head? .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent |
28th July 2009, 12:24 AM
| | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
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Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity You tried to make a comparison to what the Church says about so called women's ordination and casting of lots done in the book of Acts when there is no comparison.
Indeed I made the comparison and there is a comparison. The comparison is that the Church according to you doesn't have the authority to ordain women because it wasn't granted to them to do so, yet they did somehow have the authority to change how a successor to an Apostle is chosen.
The Church says that women can't be priests, but the Church doesn't say that casting of lots is wrong. And for the third time, casting of lots done in Acts is similar to the process of how the Pope gets elected.
How do you reconcile believing that women can be ordained when the Sacred Tradition, which is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error, has always been universally held throughout the whole Church east and west that they can't be priests? Again according to Roman Catholic doctrine the Holy Spirit guarantees that "Sacred Tradition" is guaranteed to be without error. The Scripture actually makes no such guarantee. I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church to be the Church. Why do you keep avoiding the question about Junias? or women Deaconesses?
Do you reject Sacred Tradition? If so, what do you base your Christian beliefs on? Remember that we only know that the Bible is the Bible because of the authority of the Catholic Church to determine the canon of scripture. Also how do you reconcile belief in women's ordination with the Bible saying that the man is the head?
No I don't reject Tradition but I do not believe either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Churches to be the Church. Pretty simple answer actually. If I did then there would be a problem. The Canon was decided by the ancient Church. But even then most of them were wrong until the 1500's. Again I don't consider either the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox Churches to be the ancient Church. But even if I did then they would have to explain Junias and the Deaconesses.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
Last edited by No Swansong; 28th July 2009 at 12:53 PM.
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28th July 2009, 01:55 AM
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I think the main difference between you and me is that you view the Church as a fallible man-made institution whereas I believe the Church is divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth regarding faith and morals.
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 28th July 2009 at 02:22 AM.
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28th July 2009, 11:16 AM
| | Critical loyalist
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Reps: 82,864,414,902 (power: 82,864,433) | | | Your epistemology needs work. |
28th July 2009, 12:50 PM
| | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
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Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity No Swansong,
I think the main difference between you and me is that you view the Church as a fallible man-made institution whereas I believe the Church is divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth regarding faith and morals.
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You're close I believe the Roman Catholic Church to be a fallible man-made institution.
I believe The Church to be divinely instituted and guided by the Holy Spirit in truth, but that man is not always capable enough to understand or recognize this truth right away. \
You are, in my opinion, confusing The Roman Catholic Church with The Church.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
|
28th July 2009, 12:55 PM
| | Formerly Jtbdad Christian on every board!
| | Join Date: 14th April 2004 Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,965
Blessings: 81,772
Reps: 2,383,015,851,206,685 (power: 2,383,015,851,224) | | Originally Posted by fragmentsofdreams Your epistemology needs work.
That's what the Bishop of the Diocese I live in said too. Of course the Dean of the Lutheran Seminary here thinks it's spot on.
__________________ Just a Christian
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
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