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26th July 2009, 08:01 PM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by JasonV  I find it nigh laughable to believe that it's God's will to allow women all of His sacraments but one. Why would God tell Adam and Eve that they can partake of everything in the Garden of Eden except for one tree with a forbidden fruit? Do you find that "laughable" too? I don't know if you realize it, but your problem with this is actually with Jesus and the apostles who only chose men for ordination. .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 26th July 2009 at 08:39 PM.
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26th July 2009, 08:06 PM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by No Swansong So now they do have the authority? Fist they don't now they do, sounds a little confusing don't you think? Jesus received all authority from the Father in Heaven, but does that authority include authority to contradict the will of the Father? Of course not. That authority means that when the apostles heard Jesus, they heard the Father, just as when the Catholic Church speaks, we hear Jesus. "You must follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as you would the command of God. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop, or by one whom he appoints. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8:1-2, AD 107 Originally Posted by No Swansong Yet the only proof that you have that God does not intend it for women is an argument from silence. It's called the Deposit of Faith that was imparted from Christ to the apostles and to their successors via the Holy Spirit through something called Sacred Tradition. To even begin to understand this concept, one has to believe that the Church is divine and not a mere man-made institution. .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 26th July 2009 at 08:18 PM.
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26th July 2009, 08:20 PM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by mg0086 the last time i heard of this, the ordination of women by the Catholic Church was up in the air. "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful." -Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis Hope this helps.  .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent |
26th July 2009, 10:36 PM
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Reps: 18,944,763,352,946,140 (power: 18,944,763,352,955) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity Why would God tell Adam and Eve that they can partake of everything in the Garden of Eden except for one tree with a forbidden fruit? Do you find that "laughable" too? I don't know if you realize it, but your problem with this is actually with Jesus and the apostles who only chose men for ordination.
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This doesn't logically follow. The Tree was forbidden to both sexes.
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26th July 2009, 10:40 PM
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Reps: 1,048,985,195,837,867,008 (power: 1,048,985,195,837,901) | | | Actually Jesus choose JEWISH men for ordination, fisherfolk, tax-collectors and zealots. If we can ONLY ordain those Jesus himself ordained then we need to be ordaining the above as well.
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26th July 2009, 11:13 PM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by JasonV This doesn't logically follow. The tree in the garden is one type of forbidden fruit. Women's ordination is another type of forbidden fruit. Satan tempted the woman to eat of the forbidden fruit. .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent |
26th July 2009, 11:39 PM
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Reps: 13,587,832,172,079,916 (power: 13,587,832,172,085) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity The tree in the garden is one type of forbidden fruit. Women's ordination is another type of forbidden fruit. Satan tempted the woman to eat of the forbidden fruit.
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And the Devil said, "Yeah, has God said, 'Thou mayest not have women priests.' " In Genesis somewhere, right? |
27th July 2009, 12:24 AM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by kiwimac Actually Jesus choose JEWISH men for ordination, fisherfolk, tax-collectors and zealots. If we can ONLY ordain those Jesus himself ordained then we need to be ordaining the above as well. Ordination of gentiles is in Sacred Tradition which comes from the same deposit of faith that Jesus imparted to the apostles. But by contrast, women's ordination is not found anywhere in either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition. .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 27th July 2009 at 01:01 AM.
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27th July 2009, 12:26 AM
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Reps: 281,066,741,495,701,312 (power: 281,066,741,495,709) | | Originally Posted by Korah And the Devil said, "Yeah, has God said, 'Thou mayest not have women priests.' " In Genesis somewhere, right? Satan tempted Eve with pride. Whatever God forbids, Satan tempts us with. The forbidden fruit is something different today, but the temptation of pride has not changed. .
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“For neither does he [the Devil] seek those whom he has already subdued, nor does he take the trouble to overthrow those whom he has already made his own. The foe and enemy of the Church despises and passes by those whom he has alienated from the Church, and led without as captives and conquered; he goes on to harass those in whom he sees Christ dwell.” – Saint Cyprian (Epistle 56)
Pope Benedict XVI is innocent
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 27th July 2009 at 01:08 AM.
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27th July 2009, 02:52 AM
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Reps: 82,864,414,902 (power: 82,864,433) | | Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity Ordination of gentiles is in Sacred Tradition which comes from the same deposit of faith that Jesus imparted to the apostles. But by contrast, women's ordination is not found anywhere in either Holy Scripture or Sacred Tradition.
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But, why?
That is the question we keep coming to. Your argument boils down to "We've always done it that way, so there must be a good reason," and the responses boil down to "'We've always don it that way' isn't a good reason in itself." While we should be hesitant to overturn long traditions even if we do not see their purpose, the fact that something is a long tradition is not enough to justify maintaining something that has negative effects.
I support going slowly on this issue and taking time to properly discern. Perhaps, there is a really good reason that we have forgotten that we will rediscover. However, if the Holy Spirit provides the Church with no such reason after a time of discernment, we will need to correct what may be unjustified discrimination.  | | |
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