No no straw grasping here. The question is about authority. You claim that the Catholic Church hasn't the authority to violate the practice of Christ and the Apostles yet the method of choosing a replacement originally was the casting of lots which the Catholic Church no longer practices. What gives them the authority to discard this practice?
If you would have read my post, you would have seen that I said that the Catholic Church has never said that casting of lots was wrong or that it can't be done in choosing a bishop. And as a matter of fact, it's a lot like how the Pope gets chosen. You have borne false witness against the Catholic Church. As I said before, the casting of lots done by the apostles was to decide between two men for the one to succeed Judas, not to decide whether it should be a man or a woman.
Originally Posted by LivingWordUnity
One question for you is this. If Jesus wanted women to be ordained, why didn't He ordain His mother who was more holy than all of the apostles and all of us combined?
Originally Posted by No Swansong
Could be any number of reasons but the first that comes to my mind is to protect her.
Where are you getting that from? Where is it taught either in Sacred Scripture or in Holy Tradition that Jesus didn't ordain His mother because He wanted to protect her? Why is it that in all of salvation history recorded in the Old and New Testaments, God always only chose men to be ordained priests? If God wanted this to change God would have let us know about the change in the New Testament which is God's last public revelation to us, but in the New Testament we see more of the same of male only priests. .
__________________ "The moral gravity of procured abortion is apparent in all its truth if we recognize that we are dealing with murder" - Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, par. 58
"Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." -Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, par. 36
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 23rd July 2009 at 01:07 AM.
If you would have read my post, you would have seen that I said that the Catholic Church has never said that casting of lots was wrong or that it can't be done in choosing a bishop. And as a matter of fact, it's a lot like how the Pope gets chosen. You have borne false witness against the Catholic Church. As I said before, the casting of lots done by the apostles was to decide between two men for the one to succeed Judas, not to decide whether it should be a man or a woman.
I did read your post and I deconstructed it. I wrote nothing wrong or incorrect about the Roman Catholic Church. You either are choosing to ignore my post are are purposely misrepresenting it.
Where are you getting that from? Where is it taught either in Sacred Scripture or in Holy Tradition that Jesus didn't ordain His mother because He wanted to protect her? Why is it that in all of salvation history recorded in the Old and New Testaments, God always only chose men to be ordained priests? If God wanted this to change God would have let us know about the change in the New Testament which is God's last public revelation to us, but in the New Testament we see more of the same of male only priests.
.
To begin with you are assuming too much of my answer. I never claimed my answer had witness from either Tradition or Scripture. If you will notice I said that the first that came to mind is that He may have been protecting her. The answer is purely conjecture. There is no reason given in Scripture that addresses why Mary was not made an Apostle. As for Tradition do we really want to accept everything the Church Fathers wrote as infallible? If so then there is an awful lot you are not going to agree with.
As for the rest of your post, first of all I believe Junias who is referred to as outstanding among the Apostles is mentioned in Scripture. And besides again you are arguing from silence which I will point out to you once again is a logical fallacy. There are many possible answers as to why such and such didn't do such a thing. Jesus never told us a lot of things. At least as recorded in the New Testament. I could just as easily say that Jesus never told us to not stone our Children if they are rebellious. He never told us not to clone, He never told us to wipe our bottoms after we use the restroom. To argue that we shouldn't do or not do these things because Jesus never told us to or not to is a very very poor argument.
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Hmm....I'm not sure I agree with this phrasing. Nevertheless, I have no desire that this become a purely semantic dispute, and so I will leave it as is and ask: What, exactly is the alternative? Would you rather that the Roman Catholic Church proclaimed supreme authority to change any aspect of the faith regardless of its origin or status? Would you really rather that the Church professed even greater authority? I have to admit, it just tickles me pink that so many of the people who support female ordination also tend to whine about the authoritarian nature of the Church, and yet, in this instance, the problem is that the Church has proclaimed its awareness of a divine limit on her own authority.
Well in the interest of full disclosure I am not Roman Catholic. So to be honest I don't really prefer that the Roman Catholic Church do anything. I don't rail against the Roman Catholic Church because they are authoritarian nor do I believe that they are purposely disingenuous. I believe that the Roman Catholic Church believes itself to be in line with Tradition. I just happen to disagree with it.
But to address your question the problem with recognizing the limits of authority is that unless it is consistently applied and clearly defined (neither of which I believe the Roman Catholic Church does) it clearly is fallible.
By the way, your ever-so-thoughtful dismissal of the argument from Tradition (let us maintain a distinction between upper- and lower-case "Ts," eh?) might need to be reconsidered. Why is it apparently irrelevant to you that the Church considers the form and matter of the Sacraments to be of divine origin?
How is it apparent to you that I believe the form and matter of the Sacraments is irrelevant? I'm arguing against neither.
According to AboutCatholics.com What are the form and matter of this sacrament?
The form is the prayer of consecration asking for and conferring the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The matter is the laying on of hands by the bishop and the anointing of the hands.
I have to admit I have never read that the sex of an individual ever effected the form or the matter of a sacrament.
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Why do people believe that the Virgin Mary had to be an apostle if women could be apostles?
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:27-30)
Mary had a very special role in the plan of salvation. John the Baptist also had a special role, yet he was not an apostle either.
Why do people believe that the Virgin Mary had to be an apostle if women could be apostles?
Because the ones who want women to be ordained tend to view being a priest as the equivalent of a secular job position, and therefore, a right. But because ordination is nothing less than a calling from God, it is not anyone's right. And God gave all of His authority to the Church to determine things like who should be and who should not be ordained when He said to the apostles, "He who hears you, hears me."
One of the arguments is that there are many holy women within the Church. And I agree, there are many holy and dedicated women in the Church who serve the Church well. But if holiness alone would be all that it takes to qualify to be a priest then no woman would be more qualified than the mother of Jesus. But Jesus didn't ordain His mother (or any other woman) for a reason. So rather than questioning God's judgment, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, trusts in God's wisdom on the matter since Jesus is God and knows everything.
It seems that the women who are spending all of their time and energy protesting that they can't be priests have lost sight of the most important goal for all of us to be holy so that we may enter into Heaven to love and serve the Lord for all eternity. But holiness takes the humility to accept God's will over our own will, and we must be willing to submit to God's will for whatever forbidden fruit that God does not intend for us to have. .
__________________ "The moral gravity of procured abortion is apparent in all its truth if we recognize that we are dealing with murder" - Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, par. 58
"Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." -Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, par. 36
Last edited by LivingWordUnity; 26th July 2009 at 08:00 AM.
Because the ones who want women to be ordained tend to view being a priest as the equivalent of a secular job position, and therefore, a right. But because ordination is nothing less than a calling from God, it is not anyone's right. And God gave all of His authority to the Church to determine things like who should be and who should not be ordained when He said to the apostles, "He who hears you, hears me."
One of the arguments is that there are many holy women within the Church. And I agree, there are many holy and dedicated women in the Church who serve the Church well. But if holiness alone would be all that it takes to qualify to be a priest then no woman would be more qualified than the mother of Jesus. But Jesus didn't ordain His mother (or any other woman) for a reason. So rather than questioning God's judgment, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, trusts in God's wisdom on the matter since Jesus is God and knows everything.
It seems that the women who are spending all of their time and energy protesting that they can't be priests have lost sight of the most important goal for all of us to be holy so that we may enter into Heaven to love and serve the Lord for all eternity. But holiness takes the humility to accept God's will over our own will, and we must be willing to submit to God's will for whatever forbidden fruit that God does not intend for us to have. .
I find it nigh laughable to believe that it's God's will to allow women all of His sacraments but one.
__________________ "Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Because the ones who want women to be ordained tend to view being a priest as the equivalent of a secular job position, and therefore, a right. But because ordination is nothing less than a calling from God, it is not anyone's right. And God gave all of His authority to the Church to determine things like who should be and who should not be ordained when He said to the apostles, "He who hears you, hears me."
So now they do have the authority? Fist they don't now they do, sounds a little confusing don't you think?
One of the arguments is that there are many holy women within the Church. And I agree, there are many holy and dedicated women in the Church who serve the Church well. But if holiness alone would be all that it takes to qualify to be a priest then no woman would be more qualified than the mother of Jesus. But Jesus didn't ordain His mother (or any other woman) for a reason. So rather than questioning God's judgment, the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, trusts in God's wisdom on the matter since Jesus is God and knows everything.
For a reason yes but do you actually claim that you know what that reason is? Again why are you dodging the question about Junias and Deaconesses?
It seems that the women who are spending all of their time and energy protesting that they can't be priests have lost sight of the most important goal for all of us to be holy so that we may enter into Heaven to love and serve the Lord for all eternity. But holiness takes the humility to accept God's will over our own will, and we must be willing to submit to God's will for whatever forbidden fruit that God does not intend for us to have.
.
Yet the only proof that you have that God does not intend it for women is an argument from silence.
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I find it nigh laughable to believe that it's God's will to allow women all of His sacraments but one.
I find it even more laughable that a doctrine is built on an argument from silence.
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Just a Christian
Please note if I am posting in an inappropriate manner or unintelligibly please notify a moderator. I take some very serious medications which alter my Level of Consciousness. Mods please remove anything necessary.
the last time i heard of this, the ordination of women by the Catholic Church was up in the air.
Hmm...I think that if I really wanted to indulge in becoming a member of clergy, I would rather be a very devoted nun. I'm not that strong however...
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I did read your post and I deconstructed it. I wrote nothing wrong or incorrect about the Catholic Church.
You argued that the Church was against the casting of lots in Acts 1:26. The Catholic Church is not against what the apostles did in Acts 1:26, and you can't show that she is or has ever been against it. Falsely saying that someone is going against the word of God is a serious offense, especially when this false charge is against the same Church that was founded by none other than Christ Himself. So admit that you have borne false witness against the Catholic Church, and repent. .
__________________ "The moral gravity of procured abortion is apparent in all its truth if we recognize that we are dealing with murder" - Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, par. 58
"Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." -Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, par. 36
I'm not that strong however... 
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