...we know that sickness and disease is not from God.
No we don't.
Deut . 28:27 The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, eczema, and scabies, all of which cannot be healed. 28:28 The Lord will also subject you to madness, blindness, and confusion of mind. 28:29 You will feel your way along at noon like the blind person does in darkness and you will not succeed in anything you do;
28:35 The Lord will afflict you in your knees and on your legs with painful, incurable boils – from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.
28:59 then the Lord will increase your punishments and those of your descendants – great and long-lasting afflictions and severe, enduring illnesses. 28:60 He will infect you with all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will persistently afflict you. 28:61 Moreover, the Lord will bring upon you every kind of sickness and plague not mentioned in this scroll of commandments, until you have perished.
This does seem to show that God brought sickness upon people. Can someone tell me how to deal with these scriptures in terms of sickness not being from God? Thanks!
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The only souvenirs here are bloody knuckles and broken bones.
- Kung Fu Panda
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- Wallace Stevens
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- C.S. Lewis, "The Four Loves"
What's easy really is often the enemy of what's best and most fulfilling.
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There are two main approaches to this within the WoF movement that I can see.
Kenneth Hagin will talk about the permissive voice in the Hebrew. Hebrew has a permissive voice that is not translated properly into the English.
Where it says "I will not put the diseases on you" it actually says in the original "I will not permit the diseases to be put on you". I would imagine most WoF people would agree with Hagin on this. Hopefully someone with some books in front of them who is not typing his last few posts in bed before falling asleep will give you some references to this teaching because he mentions it many times.
This would be the kind of teaching Jerry Savelle refers to when he says "God didn't make you sick - He doesn't have any sickness to make you sick with".
Andrew Wommack teaches it different. He says that God can put sickness on someone, like the Egyptians but with two caveats: firstly, the purpose of sickness from God is never to redeem or teach, but to utterly destroy someone. i.e. sickness is a curse not a blessing. Anyone who says their sickness is to teach them something is wrong. Secondly, in the NT, no born again person can be given sickness by God because they are redeemed from sickness.
There may be other explanations.
One of the things that is unusual within WoF Supplanter that you will start to see is that there still are questions. But we don't rip out Matthew 8 and Isaiah 53 to answer the questions, but we attempt to answer the questions in the context of Matthew 8 and Isaiah 53 and Galatians 3 which we know to be true. We still have a lot to learn from Scripture and we all still have questions. Not enough has been done to answer questions from a Word Faith point of view.
I think now I am Word Faith there are still a couple of pieces of the jigsaw of Scripture I don't get, but before I was Word Faith I might have had one piece of the jigsaw, and not ever had an edge. Now I know I have the corners: God is good, we are fully redeemed, I walk by faith and not by sight, and I fit the other pieces in in relation to the corners.
That is why I love this forum so much so we can discuss these issues without having 3 naysayers and their dog jumping in and telling us we are wrong - not because of the Bible - but because Great Aunt Jean MacClutchmybutt got sick and died therefore the Word must not be true, if you what I mean.
Blessings,
Benjamin
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
There are two main approaches to this within the WoF movement that I can see.
Kenneth Hagin will talk about the permissive voice in the Hebrew. Hebrew has a permissive voice that is not translated properly into the English.
Where it says "I will not put the diseases on you" it actually says in the original "I will not permit the diseases to be put on you". I would imagine most WoF people would agree with Hagin on this. Hopefully someone with some books in front of them who is not typing his last few posts in bed before falling asleep will give you some references to this teaching because he mentions it many times.
This would be the kind of teaching Jerry Savelle refers to when he says "God didn't make you sick - He doesn't have any sickness to make you sick with".
Andrew Wommack teaches it different. He says that God can put sickness on someone, like the Egyptians but with two caveats: firstly, the purpose of sickness from God is never to redeem or teach, but to utterly destroy someone. i.e. sickness is a curse not a blessing. Anyone who says their sickness is to teach them something is wrong. Secondly, in the NT, no born again person can be given sickness by God because they are redeemed from sickness.
There may be other explanations.
One of the things that is unusual within WoF Supplanter that you will start to see is that there still are questions. But we don't rip out Matthew 8 and Isaiah 53 to answer the questions, but we attempt to answer the questions in the context of Matthew 8 and Isaiah 53 and Galatians 3 which we know to be true. We still have a lot to learn from Scripture and we all still have questions. Not enough has been done to answer questions from a Word Faith point of view.
I think now I am Word Faith there are still a couple of pieces of the jigsaw of Scripture I don't get, but before I was Word Faith I might have had one piece of the jigsaw, and not ever had an edge. Now I know I have the corners: God is good, we are fully redeemed, I walk by faith and not by sight, and I fit the other pieces in in relation to the corners.
That is why I love this forum so much so we can discuss these issues without having 3 naysayers and their dog jumping in and telling us we are wrong - not because of the Bible - but because Great Aunt Jean MacClutchmybutt got sick and died therefore the Word must not be true, if you what I mean.
Blessings,
Benjamin
Thanks Ben. This was one of those things that I knew was true, but couldn't quite work it into a suitable explanation for others. For me, there is no getting around that the atonement included healing and if all sins are taken away by Christ then so are all diseases and infirmities. These verses seemed problematic, but now I think I'm getting more of a clear idea about it.
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Less Hate, More Frolicking
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The only souvenirs here are bloody knuckles and broken bones.
- Kung Fu Panda
The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream.
- Wallace Stevens
To love at all is to be vulnerable.
- C.S. Lewis, "The Four Loves"
What's easy really is often the enemy of what's best and most fulfilling.
-Latteda
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I deliberately didn't say which side I went with or my opinions, because I am interested Supplanter in having seen my post what your view would be on this.
Blessings,
Ben
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
Personally I believe if sickness and diesease were from God and that sickness somehow glorified him then I think Jesus as our example would have been the sickest person on the planet...
He would have stood tall in the midst of the worst sickness and said... this is how you glorify God...
But in actual fact Jesus walked in divine health and as our example we can do the same...
I deliberately didn't say which side I went with or my opinions, because I am interested Supplanter in having seen my post what your view would be on this.
Blessings,
Ben
Well, I was already leaning toward what you said Andrew Wommack's was before I posted the thread, but I didn't know who he was or anything. I shy away from trying to prove things linguistically, because it is usually just too touch and go in terms of definitive evidence to support a doctrine. I mean, I find it interesting for myself and enjoy those things immensely (I am an English teacher and I am in love with how language works) and even believe some things based on word and grammatical studies of Biblical texts, but I hardly ever use it to try to explain to someone else why I believe what I believe. So, from now on, if someone questions me about those texts, I will approach it from an atonement/new convenant standpoint, though I will be looking more into those versus being in passive voice.
Also, I believe that if we go back to the Garden, then we see that sickness was never a part of God's perfect will in the first place, so I agree with both stances in different respects.
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Less Hate, More Frolicking
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The only souvenirs here are bloody knuckles and broken bones.
- Kung Fu Panda
The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream.
- Wallace Stevens
To love at all is to be vulnerable.
- C.S. Lewis, "The Four Loves"
What's easy really is often the enemy of what's best and most fulfilling.
-Latteda
Single's Prayer Thread for Anyone in Need: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
One other thing to consider- He revealed Himself in Exodus 15:26 with the redemptive name Jehovah Rapha- I am the Lord that Healeth thee. Question. If you went to a doctor and 1 visit they were trying to get you medicine to help get you cured and the next visit they gave you something to kill you- would you want to go back? How would you know which visit you were getting?
No thank God, we can look at the character of God and recognize that He is a Good God. In James 1:17 it says every good and perfect gift is from above... and then goes on to mention His character "in whom there is no variableness or shadow of turning"-God does not change His mind. Halleluah!
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"I am a spirit being. I have a soul. And I live in a body. Saying that helped me become more spirit-concious. It helped my faith, because faith is of the spirit, or the heart." Kenneth E. Hagin
One other thing to consider- He revealed Himself in Exodus 15:26 with the redemptive name Jehovah Rapha- I am the Lord that Healeth thee. Question. If you went to a doctor and 1 visit they were trying to get you medicine to help get you cured and the next visit they gave you something to kill you- would you want to go back? How would you know which visit you were getting?
No thank God, we can look at the character of God and recognize that He is a Good God. In James 1:17 it says every good and perfect gift is from above... and then goes on to mention His character "in whom there is no variableness or shadow of turning"-God does not change His mind. Halleluah!
That's true. Thank you for sharing this. God does reveal Himself as the one who heals us in the Old Testament, so how much more under the new covenant when all our sickness an infrimities have been take by Christ. Why would we expect any less under the New Covenant than we would we Old?
__________________
Less Hate, More Frolicking
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The only souvenirs here are bloody knuckles and broken bones.
- Kung Fu Panda
The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream.
- Wallace Stevens
To love at all is to be vulnerable.
- C.S. Lewis, "The Four Loves"
What's easy really is often the enemy of what's best and most fulfilling.
-Latteda
Single's Prayer Thread for Anyone in Need: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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