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2nd July 2009, 04:51 PM
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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | [quote] Originally Posted by Hespera  Too may causes, original causes and uncaused causes for me, sorry. That makes no sense to me.
Then you should study it.  As for "chance" would you think that the intricate pattern of a watershed, all mathematical and highly structured, is that a chance event? Likewise many another highly ordered but non living thing?
To me the are the logical, inevitable consequence of energy matter and the laws that govern them.
That's the point. I dont believe them to be a chance event. How does the energy matter and the laws that govern them cause the first organism to exist? And cause wise, we have the problem of what caused god and caused him to know how to do all this stuff. But thats going too far for this thread.
If you follow the casualty argument then you would know that there can not be an infinite series of causes so there has to be a cause that is uncaused. Some have tried to refute this but have only ended up positing fallacies.
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“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. |
2nd July 2009, 04:56 PM
|  | I doubt it.
 
| | Join Date: 3rd December 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Reps: 1,302,836,567,483 (power: 1,302,836,571) | | Originally Posted by Hentenza
Is still your opinion since you are yet to present evidence to quantify it.
You didn't ask, but I'm happy to hear that you're willing to accept the proposition on evidence, rather than ignoring it on faith. There is a preponderance of evidence, do you have a particular metric that you'd be most interested in seeing the results for, or should I just start listing the studies one by one? |
2nd July 2009, 05:01 PM
| | I doubt it.
| | Join Date: 3rd December 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Reps: 1,302,836,567,483 (power: 1,302,836,571) | | Originally Posted by AV1611VET There were lions in Eden?
Were you there?
Are you implying that they evolved later, then?  |
2nd July 2009, 05:05 PM
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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | Originally Posted by redwards You didn't ask, but I'm happy to hear that you're willing to accept the proposition on evidence, rather than ignoring it on faith. There is a preponderance of evidence, do you have a particular metric that you'd be most interested in seeing the results for, or should I just start listing the studies one by one?
Is your premise. Post away.
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“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. |
2nd July 2009, 05:05 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Bombila I'd just as soon not see anyone in long red undies, tbh. 
If my scenario was right, though, we have Jesus' followers attributing to him a magical ability, and Jesus letting them think they're right. Unless you think he also believed it himself. Which brings up possibilities I'm not permitted to discuss on CF.
Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam |
2nd July 2009, 05:08 PM
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| | Join Date: 16th December 2008 Location: usa
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Then you should study it.
That's the point. I dont believe them to be a chance event. How does the energy matter and the laws that govern them cause the first organism to exist?
If you follow the casualty argument then you would know that there can not be an infinite series of causes so there has to be a cause that is uncaused. Some have tried to refute this but have only ended up positing fallacies.
Regarding chance, no, a river valley and the whole drainage system is not chance at all, it is the inevitable result of the forces of nature. I figure life is the same way.
In the past, people had very little idea how all sorts of things happened. Where did a tsunami come from why does it rain, what is lightning, etc.
Generally there were supernatural explanations.
At the present time, nobody knows under what circumstances life arose. There are some interesting hints, in terms of the complex organic molecules that spontaneously form themselves.
Perhaps we will know some day, maybe not. Give science a chance here! Science as we know it is in its infancy. Ten thousand years from now, lets see what is known. (wish I could!)
Anyway, just coz I dont know how something happened seems a poor reason to assume its supernatural. Thats proven to be the wrong explanation for so many things that were assumed to be supernatural. |
2nd July 2009, 05:12 PM
| | Junior Member
| | Join Date: 16th December 2008 Location: usa
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Reps: 110,182,959,778,071,968 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Catherineanne
Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).
Definitions of magic on the Web: - any art that invokes supernatural powers
Why does the word "magic" not fit? Magic "trick" of course, is another thing altogether. Miracle - magic, magic-miracle, what is the difference? |
2nd July 2009, 05:13 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Hentenza Why would I cite the fall when discussing animal behavior? The fall technically only affected man not animals.
This is not in fact the case. I am no expert by any means, but as I understand it man's fall had a direct effect on nature, and a previously peaceful co-existence among lettuce eating lions, tigers and lambs in the Garden of Eden ended up being corrupted into the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw that we know and love today.
The theory is that man is the first fruit of the redemption, and that from our redemption will follow all the other parts of creation, ultimately resulting in the lion resuming his lettuce eating habits, and sleeping alongside those baby baa lambs once again. We have Isaiah to thank for this pastorale.
Therefore the fall did not affect only mankind, but the whole of creation.
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam |
2nd July 2009, 05:13 PM
| | I will fear no evil for You are with me Angels Team
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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | Originally Posted by Hespera
Regarding chance, no, a river valley and the whole drainage system is not chance at all, it is the inevitable result of the forces of nature. I figure life is the same way.
In the past, people had very little idea how all sorts of things happened. Where did a tsunami come from why does it rain, what is lightning, etc.
Generally there were supernatural explanations.
At the present time, nobody knows under what circumstances life arose. There are some interesting hints, in terms of the complex organic molecules that spontaneously form themselves.
Perhaps we will know some day, maybe not. Give science a chance here! Science as we know it is in its infancy. Ten thousand years from now, lets see what is known. (wish I could!)
Anyway, just coz I dont know how something happened seems a poor reason to assume its supernatural. Thats proven to be the wrong explanation for so many things that were assumed to be supernatural.
Then you are negating a supernatural explanation of origins based on faith.
__________________
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. |
2nd July 2009, 05:16 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Hespera Definitions of magic on the Web: - any art that invokes supernatural powers
Why does the word "magic" not fit? Magic "trick" of course, is another thing altogether. Miracle - magic, magic-miracle, what is the difference?
The agent.
Magic is man attempting to control nature/the deity through spell, incantation, ritual etc. It is indeed the invoking by man of supernatural powers, and it is thoroughly unChristian.
Miracle is God acting in nature.
Anything Our Lord does is miracle, but not magic. Which is, admittedly, circular, but what can you do? 
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam | | |
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