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2nd July 2009, 03:32 PM
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__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam
Last edited by Catherineanne; 2nd July 2009 at 03:39 PM.
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2nd July 2009, 03:42 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Bombila Nature generally demands the addition of something like fruit and something like yeast to water before any wine can appear.
The gospels are silent about the addition of fruit and a fermenting agent. They don't say it was there, and they don't say it wasn't.
What they say is that several containers were filled with water, and then fine wine was poured out of them.
As with Genesis, we are told the beginning and the end, but some of the bits in the middle are not so clear. However, whatever the process, it is not what I would call supernatural. Supernatural is breaking the laws of nature, not just speeding them up a bit.
Others may think differently, of course. That is up to them.
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam | 
2nd July 2009, 03:45 PM
|  | I will fear no evil for You are with me Angels Team Site Advisor

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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | Originally Posted by Hespera
Ok then prove there is no bigfoot. You know what I meant.
As for what you said about theories....
Theories are based on data, and subject to falsification.
The problem for creationism to even qualify as a theory is that it
a) has not data
b) is magic-based and as such not subject to falsification.
If you want to use the reasonable doubt model, i have reasonable doubts about creationism since it has no data to confirm it. Evolution has a real edge there!
I also doubt the existence of other things for which there is no evidence and no way to detect their existence.
Can you cite a single theory of origins that is falsifiable?
Again, evolution does not posit origins.
__________________ “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. | 
2nd July 2009, 03:50 PM
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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | Originally Posted by Hespera
And back at you.... I'd say that those who do accept the supernatural, automatically or otherwise, on the basis of no evidence whatever are not being detectably intellectual to any degree at all.
Who says there is no evidence? I see plenty of evidence for a creator in nature.
__________________ “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. | 
2nd July 2009, 03:53 PM
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 | | Join Date: 28th November 2006
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Reps: 15,346,878,439,292 (power: 15,346,878,448) | | Originally Posted by Catherineanne The gospels are silent about the addition of fruit and a fermenting agent. They don't say it was there, and they don't say it wasn't.
What they say is that several containers were filled with water, and then fine wine was poured out of them.
As with Genesis, we are told the beginning and the end, but some of the bits in the middle are not so clear. However, whatever the process, it is not what I would call supernatural. Supernatural is breaking the laws of nature, not just speeding them up a bit.
Others may think differently, of course. That is up to them.
I could actually hazard, if I thought the story was an actual record of a real event, that what was in the containers originally was wine, reduced by dehydration to a syrup or gel at the bottom. Water added to that might dissolve it, resulting in a wine flavoured cordial. Given the guests had already drunk all the wine provided by the host, it's unlikely they were in any condition to judge either the quality or alcohol content of this 'new wine' made by Jesus. | 
2nd July 2009, 03:54 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Hentenza Can you cite a single theory of origins that is falsifiable?
Again, evolution does not posit origins.
Personally, I find 'barking mad' and 'sane' much more meaningful as categories.
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam | 
2nd July 2009, 03:55 PM
|  | I doubt it.

| | Join Date: 3rd December 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Reps: 1,302,836,567,483 (power: 1,302,836,571) | | Originally Posted by Hentenza Can you cite a single theory of origins that is falsifiable?
Again, evolution does not posit origins.
Certainly. Any particular hypothesis regarding earthly abiogenesis would be utterly shaken by the discovery of extraterrestrial eukaryotes. | 
2nd July 2009, 03:57 PM
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Reps: 1,100,777,478,970,303,104 (power: 1,100,777,478,970,327) | | Originally Posted by Bombila I could actually hazard, if I thought the story was an actual record of a real event, that what was in the containers originally was wine, reduced by dehydration to a syrup or gel at the bottom. Water added to that might dissolve it, resulting in a wine flavoured cordial. Given the guests had already drunk all the wine provided by the host, it's unlikely they were in any condition to judge either the quality or alcohol content of this 'new wine' made by Jesus. 
That works fine as well. Anything you like, as long as the Lord is not in red undies.
__________________ A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench. Isaiah 42:3 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Ad Jesum per Mariam | 
2nd July 2009, 03:58 PM
|  | Veteran
 | | Join Date: 28th November 2006
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Reps: 15,346,878,439,292 (power: 15,346,878,448) | | Originally Posted by Hentenza Who says there is no evidence? I see plenty of evidence for a creator in nature.
I suppose you will only cite the effects of 'The Fall', but nature provides some pretty horrific examples of creation in the form of parasites, prey animals eaten alive by predators, natural poisons which cause the eater to die in agony, and so on.
I've always thought it far easier to consider the possibility of a benevolent God if you admit to evolution being the method of creation. Lets the deity off the hook for a lot of dismal realities. | 
2nd July 2009, 04:00 PM
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Reps: 3,545,843,110,589,445,120 (power: 3,545,843,110,589,478) | | Originally Posted by atomweaver
Please provide the reasoning behind your opinion...
Simply because exceptions to laws have a heuristic value. They are goads to progress in our understanding of the universe. It is not necessary to believe that all exceptions to known law call for another natural law to explain it. Some scientific understanding is based on regular and repeated events, one must be able to show how the exception is repeatable before one can claim that it has a natural cause rather than a supernatural one. Origins is a forensic science given that it is a singular event, hence an exception, not being repeatable.
__________________ “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |