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I have to disagree with you here. Supernatural means "beyond nature." Unless Jesus used a natural mechanism to turn water into wine (much like winemakers use natural processes to turn fruit juice into wine), then what he did was "supernatural." I am unaware of any natural process that can turn pure water into wine. This is what Jesus was reported to do.
I'm similarly unaware of of any supernatural process by which pure water can be turned into wine. For that matter, I'm unaware of any supernatural process of any kind. If Jesus did in fact transmute water into a different substance, I would be forced to observe that the natural properties of that substance had changed, and conclude that this process, occurring in the natural world, was in fact natural.
I'm more inclined to conclude that it's a myth, and that hypothesizing about the process is pointless.
My experience has been that Fundies, in general, are at least somewhat anti-intelliectual. Science is seen as "Man's Knowledge" and is always trumped by "God's Kowledge," as revealed through scripture. The joke is that both science and The Bible are works of Man. In addition, it is a particular interpretation of scripture that they claim is "God's Word," even though different people can interpret scripture differently.
This is fundie double speak.
Man's knowledge = what others think
God's knowledge = what I think
God's Word = what I say about anything at all, with or without a spurious Bible reference thrown in for good measure
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A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
I have to disagree with you here. Supernatural means "beyond nature." Unless Jesus used a natural mechanism to turn water into wine (much like winemakers use natural processes to turn fruit juice into wine), then what he did was "supernatural." I am unaware of any natural process that can turn pure water into wine. This is what Jesus was reported to do.
It was not supernatural. It was just quicker.
Changing water into an MP3 player would be supernatural. Water into wine is natural.
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A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
I will disagree with your interpretation of the definition of intellectual as you are applying it.
I am an engineer. My professional life relies on solving intellectual problems. I don't solely rely on emotion as the basis of my faith. I have spend countless hours studying many aspects of it. In my opinion, the supernatural is tightly woven with the natural so I don't immediately discount it which account for my OEC belief.
I think my definition is exactly right on with regard to those areas that you dont apply any intellectual standards. Belief in the supernatural, and emotion as a basis for faith being good examples. How do you apply intellectual standards to the study of something that cant be cetected or in any way shown to exist? (not meaning faith, whatever that is exactly, it does seem to exist)
And again, its not 'immediate" or "automatic" rejection of the supernatural!!!!! It is a what, was it you said, judicial weighing of evidence? Zero evidence means I dont believe it till I see evidence!
I'm more inclined to conclude that it's a myth, and that hypothesizing about the process is pointless.
It is not pointless if you happen to have a jug of water and a couple of bottles of decent wine handy. Then it is a good excuse for a practical experiment in the efficacy of prayer of the 'faith as small as a mustard seed' variety.
Without the wine, not so much fun.
If Jesus did in fact transmute water into a different substance, I would be forced to observe that the natural properties of that substance had changed, and conclude that this process, occurring in the natural world, was in fact natural.
Quite right. A supernatural Jesus is a scarey prospect.
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A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench.
Isaiah 42:3
Last edited by Catherineanne; 2nd July 2009 at 03:29 PM.
It is not pointless if you happen to have a jug of water and a couple of bottles of decent wine handy. Then it is a good excuse for a practical experiment in the efficacy of prayer of the 'faith as small as a mustard seed' variety.
Without the wine, not so much fun.
They say the Pilgrims landed where they did in part because they had run out of beer. Anyone know it that might be true?
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo Galilei
"Telling me the ToE is wrong is like telling a car mechanic
the internal combustion engine runs on magic."- Blayz
The POINT of Creationism, from an honest Creationist
"And yes, to prove evolution is wrong does not mean creation is right. But, the goal is just that, to prove evolution is wrong. Nothing else."
-juvenissun
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