Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Not magic. Miracle. I think we have to take the gospels at face value on this one. Whether it actually happened or not, the story existed, and was repeated, and was believed. It was not a magic trick, because our faith is not about magic (contrary to what you might think, even from parts of this forum).
Goes to my last post to Hentenza, that it is impossible to get any two Christians to agree on all facets of belief.
Looking from the outside, there is not one difference between miraculously tranforming water to wine in an instant and magically tranforming water into wine in an instant. The only difference is who performed the act. AFAICT, that is what constitutes the difference between this kind of miracle and magic: who done it. And perhaps that is all you mean.
In fact, if my natural explanation for such an event were correct, it was a trick, but not magic and not miracle. Magic has two meanings, one based in reality (magic tricks) and one based in supernatural notions (performing magic, casting a spell, etc.).
The only difference is who performed the act. AFAICT, that is what constitutes the difference between this kind of miracle and magic: who done it. And perhaps that is all you mean.
It is indeed. God is the agent of miracles, man is the attempted agent of magic.
God is allowed to do anything he wants; that is part of his job description.
If man attempts magic, he attempts to manipulate either nature or God himself. Therefore it constitutes an act of blasphemy; man taking the place of the Creator.
Perhaps it is best summed up as a matter of authority.
This is not in fact the case. I am no expert by any means, but as I understand it man's fall had a direct effect on nature, and a previously peaceful co-existence among lettuce eating lions, tigers and lambs in the Garden of Eden ended up being corrupted into the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw that we know and love today.
The theory is that man is the first fruit of the redemption, and that from our redemption will follow all the other parts of creation, ultimately resulting in the lion resuming his lettuce eating habits, and sleeping alongside those baby baa lambs once again. We have Isaiah to thank for this pastorale.
Therefore the fall did not affect only mankind, but the whole of creation.
Interesting how you can form an opinion of one topic based on bible literality and at the same time believe that Genesis is myth. That's the dangers of a relativistic view of the bible.
__________________ If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend. Augustine
Interesting how you can form an opinion of one topic based on bible literality and at the same time believe that Genesis is myth. That's the dangers of a relativistic view of the bible.
I don't recall saying that I believe Genesis is myth. My preferred term would be allegory, if I had to choose one.
Literal or allegorical, the fall affects all of creation.
Literal or allegorical, the fall affects all of creation.
I don't agree.
__________________ If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend. Augustine
Huh. I sorta thought it took care of negating itself.
Since none of the theories regarding origins are falsifiable then how can it negate itself?
__________________ If two friends ask you to judge a dispute, don't accept, because you will lose one friend; on the other hand, if two strangers come with the same request, accept because you will gain one friend. Augustine
Magic is man attempting to control nature/the deity through spell, incantation, ritual etc. It is indeed the invoking by man of supernatural powers, and it is thoroughly unChristian.
Miracle is God acting in nature.
Anything Our Lord does is miracle, but not magic. Which is, admittedly, circular, but what can you do?
ok, I see how you figure it. Course, i dont believe there is anythng supernatural out there, so its all the same to ME.
ok, I see how you figure it. Course, i dont believe there is anythng supernatural out there, so its all the same to ME.
Neither do I. If it is in creation, then it is natural.
If it is outside creation, I would not use the term supernatural, because that has all the wrong connotations. That which is outside creation is eternal, but not supernatural, imo.
My preferred term would be allegory, if I had to choose one. 
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