Question about zero tolerance...

razzelflabben · #41 3rd July 2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hammster

Okay, let's deal with this. If you have a brother or sister that you are in fellowship with, or a good friend or co-worker that you get along with, and they are going off track by sinning. Do you have an obligation to warn them of where they are going? I would think so, and just did that very thing last night. But what you shouldn't do is to make a loud announcement about what you are doing. You don't stand in front of the church and call out your friend for gossiping, let's say. You take them asside and gently, or not so gently, tell them what you see as a problem.

right, and according to church discipline, if they don't listen, the next step is to approach them with witnesses, and if that doesn't work, then formally before the body, and if that doesn't work, then we are to treat them as if they are non believers, thus even church discipline gives 4 warnings and these warnings are for things that are not considered Godly behavior, in fact, they are very serious offences not the little, ops you got angry, your in trouble...because of this teaching and some others already mentioned, I am convinced that zero tolerance is not a Godly response, that we as believers should be tolerant. That is not to say that issues are not addressed, but rather to say that when an issue needs addressed, we 1. be sure there is an offence, and 2. do so with patience and kindness. In fact, there is a passage in Timothy that talks about correcting an older man with gentleness. Notice all those things are fruit of the Spirit.

Now, relate that to these forums.

I really had wanted to not make this about the forums, isn't there a rule about getting off topic, seems I was warned for that once when I tried to tell a poster that the question he was asking was off topic. That response of trying to get things back on track, got me a warning for being off topic....Ah well, I am much more tolerant it would seem than the rules would allow, so let's carry on, and if you insist, we will indeed make this about the forum rules.

If you see a brother or sister is going off course in a thread, what would be better? Sending them a polite PM, or calling them out about it in the thread?

Does it matter, discussions often have a natural flow, why can't we touch on a topic that is off topic, then come back to the topic with a gentle reminder of what we are discussing? Why does it have to be a big production either way....I was talking to some friends the other day, in prayer meeting of all places, we were talking about one thing, which brought up another thing, pretty soon we were talking about something totally unrelated before the first topic came to a close. We commented about the new topic, then reminded each other we weren't finished with the first topic, came back to the original topic and not a single person was upset, offended, put off, destroyed, or bothered by the "offense". Did I wait till we were home and then call the person who derailed the topic? No, of course not, because there was no need for that, discussion flows with a mind of it's own, and people who are not out to look for something to be offended about, will not mind the reminder that we vered off track and need to get back to the point of the discussion.

Both are letting them know what the issue is. But which one is more loving?

both are equally loving if both are offered in love, which is the point, sometimes, especially in long threads, we all need a reminder of what the discussion is really about. For example, after being asked a few questions here, I was tempted to get off topic myself, a review of the OP (which btw is mine) put me back on track, I would have loved someone to remind me, even publically that we were getting off topic, it refocuses everyone's attention.

Which one is more likely to garner a favorable response?

again, I see no difference if both are offered in love. If one does not offend when face to face, why should it offend when typing words?

If you do this and they don't listen, and continue to do things which are rule violations, then report them.

which brings up the question of tolerance. The second logical question of which is how tolerant should one be. In the case of the forum, I have now asked that this thread NOT become about the forum rules specifically, but about tolerance in general, I have asked this at least 3 or 4 times, maybe more. How long do I wait before reporting offenses? The bible tells me to be patient, to be kind, what limit is there on patience? Kindness? is reporting someone for flowing with a discussion really kindness? And again I am not looking for what the forum rules deem is patience or kindness, but rather what God deems them to be. For example, church discipline gives 4 chances, forgiveness, 7X70...is biblical tolerance based on offense alone? Some people enjoy being offended, it makes them feel powerful, should that be rewarded? How long is tolerance of anothers imagined offenses, is there ever a time to just accept them and move on? Wouldn't that be one use of the ignore button?

You have excersied a biblical example, assuming your PM was truly done in love, and you took it to the next step if they don't listen. Then those in authority here can deal with it.

Does that sound reasonable?

Okay, so forgiving someone of an offense, through PM, accepting that appology and continueing on in the discussion is somehow reason to report and warn someone of the offense of not honoring the first request and instead forgiving another and moving on, where is the Godliness in that....if dealing with things through PM's in the spirit of forgiveness and trust gets you warned and then that is used to justify an infringement, what is the point of using PM's, from my experience of the forum, using PM's only allows the warnings that should never be issued from the world or the Church....so what benefit is there to the warning.

In church discipline it would be equivalent to going privately to an individual sinning, and having the church come back and ban you from fellowship because you didn't make the issue public in the first place. NO thanks....I would rather be gentle and kind and patient and loving in public, isolating our no one, just talking in general, than to be excommunicated for following scripture....of course that is personally, from a Christian standpoint, I would not stay in a church that thought so little of the Word of God and it is for this reason that I will be leaving CF, all the friends I have made here, and all the wonderful things I have learned, heard, etc. (time to grieve over my loss of this fellowship) Have a wonderful evening in Christ.

razzelflabben · #42 3rd July 2009, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Ummm, when you go swimming, you should know how to swim. Likewise, if you are a drunk, you should stay out of bars. This isn't rocket science.

Speak the truth in love, let God do the rest.

Not sure your view here, is it ungodly to warn someone they are teetering on the edge of violations, and giving them a chance to calm down before reporting them?

Standing Up · #43 3rd July 2009, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by razzelflabben

Not sure your view here, is it ungodly to warn someone they are teetering on the edge of violations, and giving them a chance to calm down before reporting them?

If the speed limit is 55, when you go over, you are past the edge of violation.

Maybe the question is why so upset?

razzelflabben · #44 3rd July 2009, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Standing Up

If the speed limit is 55, when you go over, you are past the edge of violation.

Maybe the question is why so upset?

so now, exploring a question is scripture is being upset?