Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
Obviously we evolved from something aquatic, but I've always gone by the rule-of-thumb that the descendants of a species are always part of that 'name' (so we're mammals because we're descended from the 'mammal' species (though that taxon has now risen to the rank of class)), but, if our ancestors were technically fish, does that mean we too are fish?
And, for that matter, are we reptiles too?
Or have I mucked up my taxonomy somewhere? Or am I overextending the English language? That is, our ancestors were fish by anyone's standards, but the word 'fish' is strictly for modern fish. Or something.
According to EOL, the chordates are split into a large number of subtaxa, one of which is mammalia (mammals), another is reptilia (reptiles), and a third which contains (ray-finned) fishes. Also, according to Wikipedia, 'fish' refers to any aquatic vertebrate. Since all vertebrates share a common ancestor, does that mean we're not descended from fish, but rather some fish-like ancestor to the terrestrial animals?
So, yeah. Any help, People Of Science?
tl;dr: what is the taxonomic relation between mammals, reptiles, fish, and amphibians?
__________________ "I am a scientist... when I find evidence that my theories are wrong, it is as exciting as if the evidence proved them right."
- Stargate: SG1
A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone.
- Charles Darwin
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
Obviously we evolved from something aquatic, but I've always gone by the rule-of-thumb that the descendants of a species are always part of that 'name' (so we're mammals because we're descended from the 'mammal' species (though that taxon has now risen to the rank of class)), but, if our ancestors were technically fish, does that mean we too are fish?
And, for that matter, are we reptiles too?
Or have I mucked up my taxonomy somewhere? Or am I overextending the English language? That is, our ancestors were fish by anyone's standards, but the word 'fish' is strictly for modern fish. Or something.
According to EOL, the chordates are split into a large number of subtaxa, one of which is mammalia (mammals), another is reptilia (reptiles), and a third which contains (ray-finned) fishes. Also, according to Wikipedia, 'fish' refers to any aquatic vertebrate. Since all vertebrates share a common ancestor, does that mean we're not descended from fish, but rather some fish-like ancestor to the terrestrial animals?
So, yeah. Any help, People Of Science?
tl;dr: what is the taxonomic relation between mammals, reptiles, fish, and amphibians?
The unity of life as i call it anyway, is one of the most interesting things in the study of the vertebrates. Comparative vertebrate anatomy isnt a quick study! But seeing how all the organ systems or different cratures relate, they are all based on the same pattern, theme and variations, is fascinating. At least to me.
I dont think its useful to blur distinctions and say that 'we are fish".
I do think its good to know how the way we are built is derived from the way certain ancient fishes were built.
I'm about halfway throught Neil Shubin's "Your Inner Fish," in which he is doing a splendid job of describing our evolutionary history all the way back to fish.
He described the evolution of the limb. Basically: 'one bone(OB), OB-OB, OB-OB-two bones (TB), OB-OB-TB-blobs (i.e.carpals/tarsals), OB-OB-TB-B-digits.
This progression limb development is well supported by the fossil record. Not to mention the gill slits in human fetal development, etc.
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Yeah, whatever fish looked like millions of years ago, that's what we 'were' in our evolutionary history.
We have to explain it to theists plenty of times that we're not descendant from the apes we see today, same applies to the fish of course but with them there's many more millions of years further back, and thus; more change as well.
According to some book (might be that "your inner fish") the hiccups is something we've got from our fish heritage.
- Ectezus
__________________ Sigmund Freud [1856-1939] (Austrian physician and pioneer psychoanalyst) said:
"It would be very nice if there were a God who created the world and was a benevolent providence, and if there were a moral order in the universe and an after-life; but it is a very striking fact that all this is exactly as we are bound to wish it to be."
Yeah, whatever fish looked like millions of years ago, that's what we 'were' in our evolutionary history.
We have to explain it to theists plenty of times that we're not descendant from the apes we see today, same applies to the fish of course but with them there's many more millions of years further back, and thus; more change as well.
According to some book (might be that "your inner fish") the hiccups is something we've got from our fish heritage.
- Ectezus
One theory for amphibian evolution was to escape predators. Fish had very large and sharp teeth compared to modern fish. They were built for the kill. Those fish who were able to spend longer amounts of time on land were selected for, and subsequently their progeny passed on genes allowing more and more time on land, and eventually amphibians.
I haven't got to the hiccups part let. I'll let you know if it's mentioned there.
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Early forms of FISH-> intermediate forms -> Early forms of AMPHIBIANS-> intermediate forms -> Early forms of REPTILES-> intermediate forms ->MAMMALS
Mammals are no more fish than you are your great grandfather.
Hmm, that's what I thought. But surely modern fish are just as much descended from them as we are? Surely the common ancestor species wasn't a fish, in the modern sense of the word?
Or are modern fish a fossil species? Relatively unchanging over the aeons, compared to us?
__________________ "I am a scientist... when I find evidence that my theories are wrong, it is as exciting as if the evidence proved them right."
- Stargate: SG1
A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone.
- Charles Darwin
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
I aM NoT A FISh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111111111111111
I will prAY for YoU!!!11111111111
__________________ “The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense." -Bishop John Shelby Spong
"It is not the obligation of the State to reconcile various faiths with reality. Do it yourself." -Atomweaver
"It is a false religion that disguises itself as Christianity. It is an Orwellian construct that teaches that Reality is a Lie and that Lies are the Truth. That Science is Religion and Religion is a Personal Relationship; that Belief in the Mundane is Faith and that Atheists have more Faith than Christians. It perverts scripture into making Christianity look foolish, while all the while convincing its victims that they are the "True Christians." It is called Creationism." - Split Rock
If a fish gave birth to a man, who did the first man mate with???///
__________________ “The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense." -Bishop John Shelby Spong
"It is not the obligation of the State to reconcile various faiths with reality. Do it yourself." -Atomweaver
"It is a false religion that disguises itself as Christianity. It is an Orwellian construct that teaches that Reality is a Lie and that Lies are the Truth. That Science is Religion and Religion is a Personal Relationship; that Belief in the Mundane is Faith and that Atheists have more Faith than Christians. It perverts scripture into making Christianity look foolish, while all the while convincing its victims that they are the "True Christians." It is called Creationism." - Split Rock
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