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Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.

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  #71  
Old 3rd July 2009, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
How about non-biological differences? That is the most important part.
Such as?
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  #72  
Old 3rd July 2009, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
Changes to the environment don't CAUSE genetic changes.
Changes to the environment controls genetic changes

You put the wrong words into my mount and then said I am wrong.
If I misunderstood you, I apologise. My intent is not to make a big deal of an error, but rather correct it if you misunderstood. I agree with your colour coded rewording 100%.
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  #73  
Old 3rd July 2009, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
Paleontology started thousands years ago without any other supporting studies. Compare bones is only thing you need to do. Of course, the better the tools, the better the classification.

So, to be confident on human evolution is wrong. One should study human evolution, but with no confidence on anything.
Thats... rather an... interesting... interpretation of the facts. Yes... people HAVE been digging up ancient bones and ascribing stories to them for thousands of years... but palaeontology, and the implied scientific methodology associated with it, is only a bit more than a century old.

Digging up a dinosaur bone and calling it a dragon is no more palaeontology than having a camp fire is organic chemistry.
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  #74  
Old 3rd July 2009, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
We use chronology to arrange bones. However, if the chronology is wrong but not aware of, the wrong arrangement may STILL "make sense". If the chronology is corrected later, then the rearranged bones would get another sensible interpretation. That is the moment same as when one does not know how to put a few odd pieces into established categories.
I disagree: if we randomise the ordering of, say, the fossil record of horse evolution, the findings won't make any sense. If we go by chronology, we see a gradual change.

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
We use chronology when the morphology is confusing. The goal is still focused on the morphological sequence.
Nope. The goal is to understand how species are interrelated.

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
After the help of chronology, the rest of the story is still developed based on the morphological change.
Because morphological change is the easiest way to document long-term evolution: if the theory of common descent is true, gradated morphological trend is effectively guaranteed.

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
Common, you may as well quit on this line. I am not a paleontologist. But I have a few as my neighbors for many years. I know the study.
So your experience in this field is, quite literally, "my neighbours were palaeontologists, therefore I am qualified to refute the entire field"? Good Lord, whatever happened to humility?

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
Just like you are now. you argue based on what you learned from books/labs. In fact, they are not YOUR arguments.

The one-line argument I made above IS MINE.
Indeed: the arguments I espouse have been honed over two centuries by countless scientists, qualified experts, and overwhelming empirical data from multiple independent lines of evidence. I am more than willing to defer to their expertise.
You, on the other hand, have no qualifications other than your proximity to you palaeontological neighbours.

Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
As I said, chronology is only a help.

I believe if one is really good in morphology (such as me, to non-biological stuff), the chronology help is not needed. Chronological data are only used to ease the mind.
Morphology isn't useful if you don't know when the organism lived. Besides, the point is that we use all the evidence available to us, and it all points to the same conclusion: morphology, chronology, fossils, geologic strata, palaeometerology, archaeology, comparative genetics, geographical distribution, ERV distribution, etc.
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  #75  
Old 3rd July 2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child View Post
I disagree: if we randomise the ordering of, say, the fossil record of horse evolution, the findings won't make any sense. If we go by chronology, we see a gradual change.


Nope. The goal is to understand how species are interrelated.


Because morphological change is the easiest way to document long-term evolution: if the theory of common descent is true, gradated morphological trend is effectively guaranteed.


So your experience in this field is, quite literally, "my neighbours were palaeontologists, therefore I am qualified to refute the entire field"? Good Lord, whatever happened to humility?


Indeed: the arguments I espouse have been honed over two centuries by countless scientists, qualified experts, and overwhelming empirical data from multiple independent lines of evidence. I am more than willing to defer to their expertise.
You, on the other hand, have no qualifications other than your proximity to you palaeontological neighbours.


Morphology isn't useful if you don't know when the organism lived. Besides, the point is that we use all the evidence available to us, and it all points to the same conclusion: morphology, chronology, fossils, geologic strata, palaeometerology, archaeology, comparative genetics, geographical distribution, ERV distribution, etc.
Your chronology argument is very weak, backward and is wrong. Paleontology is a morphological science, all others are auxiliary. You do not need chronology to arrange horse bones (in the Cenozoic time) to a correct sequence. Without knowing they are Cenozoic, the morphological trend (and the evolution story) still holds.

Unless you can give a better one. This is it from me. I am repeating myself.
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