I think the major problem with this whole impasse is that for Greece this is a moral problem and for Britain it is a legal problem.
Both sides think they are in the right on their own terms and they probably are.
Greece has a very strong , in fact unanswerable, case to moral ownership of the marbles.
Britain has a very strong case for legal ownership of the marbles.
So far Greece's diplomatic plan has been to attack Britain's case for legal ownership.
That is a direct attack on British legal proceedure and is only likely to lead to a digging in of heels on the British side.
I think most British people would accept Greece's moral ownership of the statues.
The only way forward for this is for Greece to recognise British legal ownership of the stones.
At the moment they can't do that for emotional and nationalistic reasons.
When they can accept that they will probably get the statues back until then they have very little hope of doing so unless a British Prime Minister wants to make a grand gesture. No one is going to make a grand gesture that makes them look weak.
__________________ A scientist, it's official
" The result, therefore, of this physical enquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" James Hutton, from his 1788 paper to the Royal Society of Edinburgh on the principles of geology
Hmmm... Except if they are legally bound to give them back I think Britain would look "taller" if they decided to give them back regardless of legalities. The Morality of the issue calls for Britain to rise to the plate and act with charity. Greece has nothing to lose if they do not return them as we are already the victims in this situation...
About your last comment
No one is going to make a grand gesture that makes them look weak.
But it is in weakness that a nation proves its greatness... Especially when it involves another's nations cultural treasure. That gesture would in reality make Britain look grand
While if we get the marbles through trial then it would only look that Britain hs been well....stubborn all this time worrying fof its "individual" pride than the collective interest of the international community..
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
The British Museum is an impressive place. On the one hand, it is a wonderful thing that items from all over the world have been preserved and are open to the public for viewing. However, on the other hand, I think the random guy on the street who helped me to find it made a great point too. "Its the world's largest collection of stolen items."
At this point, it shouldn't matter that Elgin obtained the Parthenon marbles legally and that he might have actually saved them. The world is a different place now. Greece, the country of their origin, wants them back and has a place ready for them. It is obvious they are more than capable of housing and taking care of them.
This is a leftover of colonialism. The US is roundly criticized for going there on any number of issues, but is is okay for the UK to still persist in retaining controversial elements of their own colonial past and clinging to the idea that Elgin was right 200 years ago and should still be considered right now, like it or lump it? If that old mindset is truly considered wrong in our time- then actual diplomatic efforts should be made by righting perceived wrongs and returning antiquities- at the very least. If not, then the clamoring against other countries wrongs needs to be dropped until your own houses are fixed. Hypocrisy is an ugly thing.
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Did the UK tend to "acquire" artifacts from cultures they deemed (at the time of the acquisition) their "equals" ?
What if the European (and British) view of the Greeks of 200 years and 100 years ago had been less 'condescending' ? (Or of the Indians, Irish, Armenians, etc. ...)
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I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
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And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
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In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
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I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.
Did the UK tend to "acquire" artifacts from cultures they deemed (at the time of the acquisition) their "equals" ?
What if the European (and British) view of the Greeks of 200 years and 100 years ago had been less 'condescending' ? (Or of the Indians, Irish, Armenians, etc. ...)
Aside from the general swiping of anything that wasn't nailed down in general, which was pretty commonplace from pretty much everyone at the time...
I think the British view at the time was that the marbles were irreplaceable and that if we didn't "acquire" them then they'd finish up being destroyed, and they'd look very nice in our big (relatively empty) museum.
__________________ Ninety-nine out of a hundred dreams came crashing down around you. But if life always fell short of your expectations, that was no argument for lowering them. There was always the hundredth dream.
I think the British view at the time was that the marbles were irreplaceable and that if we didn't "acquire" them then they'd finish up being destroyed, and they'd look very nice in our big (relatively empty) museum.
hmmmm hehehe ...With that reasoning then and justification that BTW is truly absurd all "civilized" civilizations should have striped out all of the artifacts of "less fortunate" cultures as they "cannot " take care of them....I did not see other artifacts of Greece "suffer" a terrible loss and ONLY the marbles surviving... So that argument is so shallow and empty as saying that I steal my neighbour's bike because he does not know how to take care of it.... Quite presumptious and ethicaly dishonest....
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
I think the British view at the time was that the marbles were irreplaceable and that if we didn't "acquire" them then they'd finish up being destroyed, and they'd look very nice in our big (relatively empty) museum.
That sounds like rationalization and a big cover up.
__________________ Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.
+ + + + +
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
O Giver of Life, Glory to Thee!
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Did the UK tend to "acquire" artifacts from cultures they deemed (at the time of the acquisition) their "equals" ?
What if the European (and British) view of the Greeks of 200 years and 100 years ago had been less 'condescending' ? (Or of the Indians, Irish, Armenians, etc. ...)
The British view of everyone else 200-300 years ago was condescending.
And yes the UK did acquire artifacts from cultures they deemed to be (almost) equal, British museums are stuffed full of French and Italian art, statuary, manuscripts etc.
The British ruling classes swept Europe like a plague of locusts at that time buying everything that wasn't nailed down on their grand tours.
The most suprising thing about the Elgin marbles was that Elgin was ever tried for their theft in the first place, but that just goes to show what a philohellenic culture the UK was at that period.
A trip to any country house or museum will convince you of this. The Elgin marbles were not an isolated case of cultural purchase just perhaps the most famous and contoversial. All over Europe locals were willing to part with almost anything for British Stirling, it was a period where artifacts like these were not exactly prized by the locals - the marbles were being turned into Lime at that time - and they were prized by the British aristocracy and they had the money to buy them and hope some of that culture rubbed off on them.
__________________ A scientist, it's official
" The result, therefore, of this physical enquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" James Hutton, from his 1788 paper to the Royal Society of Edinburgh on the principles of geology
The British view of everyone else 200-300 years ago was condescending.
And yes the UK did acquire artifacts from cultures they deemed to be (almost) equal, British museums are stuffed full of French and Italian art, statuary, manuscripts etc.
Those were war trophies... not acquired..... How do we really know? We do not...
The British ruling classes swept Europe like a plague of locusts at that time buying everything that wasn't nailed down on their grand tours.
The most suprising thing about the Elgin marbles was that Elgin was ever tried for their theft in the first place, but that just goes to show what a philohellenic culture the UK was at that period.
"Buying" is not the rifht word for those who had to sell to eat.... It is more like stealing...No... it does not show that he was actually it was Mrs. Elgin... If one reads the story. And how it proves they were philohellenic since they showed no respect to at least pay for their loot?
How can one be a Philo-flower if he uproots a flower?
A trip to any country house or museum will convince you of this. The Elgin marbles were not an isolated case of cultural purchase just perhaps the most famous and contoversial. All over Europe locals were willing to part with almost anything for British Stirling, it was a period where artifacts like these were not exactly prized by the locals - the marbles were being turned into Lime at that time - and they were prized by the British aristocracy and they had the money to buy them and hope some of that culture rubbed off on them.
And how this puts down the ones who "part" with their artifacts because of need? The fault falls on those more "civilized" that indeed take advantage of these "lesser" people who are "selling out" to get some money. In the case of the marbles that did not even took place... .....
If the motive was that noble they should have returned them by now then That is what a true "cultured Hellene" would have done
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Archimandrite Sophrony
Last edited by Philothei; 21st July 2009 at 10:16 AM.
Those were war trophies... not acquired..... How do we really know? We do not...
"Buying" is not the rifht word for those who had to sell to eat.... It is more like stealing...No... it does not show that he was actually it was Mrs. Elgin... If one reads the story. And how it proves they were philohellenic since they showed no respect to at least pay for their loot?
How can one be a Philo-flower if he uproots a flower?
And how this puts down the ones who "part" with their artifacts because of need? The fault falls on those more "civilized" that indeed take advantage of these "lesser" people who are "selling out" to get some money. In the case of the marbles that did not even took place... .....
If the motive was that noble they should have returned them by now then That is what a true "cultered Hellene" would have done
Wasn't it the Greco-Roman culture who taught the Anglo-Saxons some culture in the first place?
We all could use some more good education. Maybe if we were all life-long learners, that would make a difference.
__________________ Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.
+ + + + +
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
O Giver of Life, Glory to Thee!
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Last edited by MariaRegina; 18th July 2009 at 02:06 AM.
Reason: typo
I think Britain would look "taller" if they decided to give them back regardless of legalities. The Morality of the issue calls for Britain to rise to the plate and act with charity. Greece has nothing to lose if they do not return them as we are already the victims in this situation... 
Especially when it involves another's nations cultural treasure. That gesture would in reality make Britain look grand 
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