On the other hand, many artifacts were taken on scientific expeditions by the British.
They were then entrusted to institutions of higher learning. Later these artifacts might have been sold or donated to museums and wealthy individuals who hold collections.
So it is not only museums but a lot of very wealthy folk who have massive collections.
Nevertheless, the scientists should have returned these artifacts after their investigation. However, look who is funding these scientists and who want some of the loot -- governments and wealthy individuals.
This is wrong, especially when you realize that most of this grant money comes from our taxes.
__________________ Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
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Money laundering for sure and some governments unfortunately do 'legitemize" this kind of "sales"...unfortunately but the Elgin marbles non such "sale" ever took place
Anyways Unesco will be involved in this so why worry? There is the start of Italy achieving a "return" of some "Greek" origin antiquities. That was a victory indeed against "looting" someone's treasure for sure unfortunately not to its rightful owner but nevertheless a victory receiving back items obtained illegally. Romans were the first to "loot" Greece from its treasures I am not suprised they had a hard time obtaining those looted items back... Like the saying goes what comes around goes....Still though it would be unfair to demand back antiquities so long taken away. And Greece (reading from newspapers) never will or had in the past demanded back anything from Italy. it has been 2,000 years ago I personally agree that those so far back is not worth as they are bygones... But recently as of within 200 years or so with no documentation of ownship they should be returned to its rightful owner.
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Money laundering for sure and some governments unfortunately do 'legitemize" this kind of "sales"...unfortunately but the Elgin marbles non such "sale" ever took place
Anyways Unesco will be involved in this so why worry? There is the start of Italy achieving a "return" of some "Greek" origin antiquities. That was a victory indeed against "looting" someone's treasure for sure unfortunately not to its rightful owner but nevertheless a victory receiving back items obtained illegally. Romans were the first to "loot" Greece from its treasures I am not suprised they had a hard time obtaining those looted items back... Like the saying goes what comes around goes....Still though it would be unfair to demand back antiquities so long taken away. And Greece (reading from newspapers) never will or had in the past demanded back anything from Italy. it has been 2,000 years ago I personally agree that those so far back is not worth as they are bygones... But recently as of within 200 years or so with no documentation of ownship they should be returned to its rightful owner.
I agree.
__________________ Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.
+ + + + +
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
O Giver of Life, Glory to Thee!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
At the very least, these countries who have acquired stolen priceless artifacts should
(1) pay an acceptable rental fee if and until such items are returned, or
(2) return the items in question.
The Elgin Marbles weren't stolen they were purchased from their legal owners at the time. Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire and that is who Elgin purchased the marbles from. He believed he was saving then from ultimate destruction.
He was not forced into selling them to the British government by coercion but because of personal monetary problems.
Museums the world over have artifacts that come from other nations, if the Elgin marbles were forced to be repatriated it would open up a huge can of worms.
Having said that I would have no objection to the marbles going back to Greece, I care little one way or the other. Just trying to get the facts straight.
__________________ A scientist, it's official
" The result, therefore, of this physical enquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" James Hutton, from his 1788 paper to the Royal Society of Edinburgh on the principles of geology
As long as the marbles are kept in conditions conducive to their not being damaged (be it in a museum in London or Athens) then I have no real concern where they are.
The entire point of this museum was to set up something to display them and the other artifiacts from air pollution, which in Athens is fierce.
__________________ Ninety-nine out of a hundred dreams came crashing down around you. But if life always fell short of your expectations, that was no argument for lowering them. There was always the hundredth dream.
The Elgin Marbles weren't stolen they were purchased from their legal owners at the time. Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire and that is who Elgin purchased the marbles from. He believed he was saving then from ultimate destruction.
He was not forced into selling them to the British government by coercion but because of personal monetary problems.
Museums the world over have artifacts that come from other nations, if the Elgin marbles were forced to be repatriated it would open up a huge can of worms.
Having said that I would have no objection to the marbles going back to Greece, I care little one way or the other. Just trying to get the facts straight.
Sooo all these committees involved and yet have not produced any paper work to legitemize that "sale" hmmm cannot imagine why it would be that difficult if they were indeed purchased leagally...
If Elgin was forced to sell them to the British goverement or not this is irrelevant.
And why would it be a "can of worms" it should be an obligation for countries who own soemthing that needs to be retured to its original country to do so. No harm for rightful owners to have them and then circulate them for different museums to "loan" them (?) Actually it would be interesting to have different exhibits circulating (as it already happens anyways) in the world and the rightful countries to make some revenue for their own cultural pride. I would advocate to return the mummies since to be in Egypt you probably would like to see some of them
If you agree upon returning them .... does this mean that it does not open a can of worms? Okie though I am glad you agree '
I think also that it is not England's best interest to '"keept them at any cost" and withholding them just because.... does not realy work to their advantage... Actually proves them to be quite stubborn
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
As long as the marbles are kept in conditions conducive to their not being damaged (be it in a museum in London or Athens) then I have no real concern where they are.
The entire point of this museum was to set up something to display them and the other artifiacts from air pollution, which in Athens is fierce.
That was the excuse... for years. The rest of Acropolis did not excatly "fall apart" because of polution. It gets a cleaning now and then as the emissions do "darken" the marble but no biggy... It is still up there
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Sooo all these committees involved and yet have not produced any paper work to legitemize that "sale" hmmm cannot imagine why it would be that difficult if they were indeed purchased leagally...
I don't think anyone who has had more than a cursory introduction to the subject believes the marbles weren't purchased from the lawful government of that time - the Ottoman Empire.
From wikipedia:
Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin, the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1799–1803, had obtained a controversial permission from the Ottoman authorities to remove pieces from the Acropolis
Although I'd quibble at the word controversial I don't think the purchase was controversial at the time, the locals were turning the statues into Lime, but it has subsequently become contoversial.
According to locals, marble sculptures that fell or were otherwise accessible were burned to obtain lime for building
It isn't exactly suprising that the original permission to remove the marbles has been lost - the firman - lots of documents get lost. But I believe the firman that was requireed to ship the marbles still exists. I think it unlikely that the Ottoman empire would give permission to ship something that they had given permission to take don't you?
I doubt either side will give an inch on this one the Greeks and their supporters will never admit that Elgin had permission to take the marbles or even that the Ottoman empire had the right to grant such permission despite the fact that it had been in control of Athens for nearly 400 years by that point. The British Museum and its supporters will never admit that the translation of the Firman isn't real or that it doesn't in fact allow for the removal of large parts of the Parthenon's statury.
What is beyond doubt is that Elgin saved peices that would have undoubtedly be lost to us otherwise and in doing so he further damaged the fabric of the Parthenon.
If Elgin was forced to sell them to the British goverement or not this is irrelevant.
It was just another inaccuracy that I was correcting.
And why would it be a "can of worms" it should be an obligation for countries who own soemthing that needs to be retured to its original country to do so.
Thart is not the way that most Governments around the world, including your own, view the matter.
Where permission was given by the legal government of the day there is no obligation to return artifacts.
No harm for rightful owners to have them and then circulate them for different museums to "loan" them (?) Actually it would be interesting to have different exhibits circulating (as it already happens anyways) in the world and the rightful countries to make some revenue for their own cultural pride. I would advocate to return the mummies since to be in Egypt you probably would like to see some of them
The reverse of this argument is that if all Egyptian antiquities were returned to Egypt anyone wishing to view or study them would have to go to Egypt to do so, whereas with Egyptian antiquities in most national museums most people can view these artifacts without traveling internationally.
If you agree upon returning them .... does this mean that it does not open a can of worms? Okie though I am glad you agree '
I don't agree that they should be returned. i have no strong views one way or the other.
I doubt very much they ever will be returned because it would give the green light for countries the world over to demand the return of artifacts taken from their lands with the permission of previous governments. the Treasures of Troy spring to mind immediately.
I think also that it is not England's best interest to '"keept them at any cost" and withholding them just because.... does not realy work to their advantage... Actually proves them to be quite stubborn
[
I don't think Britain - not England - cares over much.
I think principle of lawful possesion is too strong to broken.
If the Greeks would admit that the marbles are legally owned by the British Goverment there is a chance that Britain would then loan them back to Greece, but the Greeks will not admit this so the British will not loan the marbles.
It is an impasse.
__________________ A scientist, it's official
" The result, therefore, of this physical enquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" James Hutton, from his 1788 paper to the Royal Society of Edinburgh on the principles of geology
I don't think anyone who has had more than a cursory introduction to the subject believes the marbles weren't purchased from the lawful government of that time - the Ottoman Empire.
Although I'd quibble at the word controversial I don't think the purchase was controversial at the time, the locals were turning the statues into Lime, but it has subsequently become contoversial.
the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1799–1803, had obtained a controversial permission from the Ottoman authorities to remove pieces from the Acropolis.
from your own source
I see nowhere were the Turks were involved.... Lord Byron a philleline accused his own people of the stolen marbles and that talks volumes
It isn't exactly suprising that the original permission to remove the marbles has been lost - the firman - lots of documents get lost. But I believe the firman that was requireed to ship the marbles still exists. I think it unlikely that the Ottoman empire would give permission to ship something that they had given permission to take don't you?
No Turks could care less about Greece's marbles.... thus the "no sale" deal...
I doubt either side will give an inch on this one the Greeks and their supporters will never admit that Elgin had permission to take the marbles or even that the Ottoman empire had the right to grant such permission despite the fact that it had been in control of Athens for nearly 400 years by that point. The British Museum and its supporters will never admit that the translation of the Firman isn't real or that it doesn't in fact allow for the removal of large parts of the Parthenon's statury.
REad my article first please...and do not come to assumptions They were "fixed": and they cut them....What taking the whole Acropolis would have been legitemate too? How would you feel removing the Palace of London or the London bridge because you were under occupation... Is it hard to wear someone else's shoes for a bit ?? I guess it is ...
What is beyond doubt is that Elgin saved peices that would have undoubtedly be lost to us otherwise and in doing so he further damaged the fabric of the Parthenon.
he cut them off !!!!
Thart is not the way that most Governments around the world, including your own, view the matter.
That is where it is goin to go as Unesco is involved in this now..
Where permission was given by the legal government of the day there is no obligation to return artifacts.
The reverse of this argument is that if all Egyptian antiquities were returned to Egypt anyone wishing to view or study them would have to go to Egypt to do so, whereas with Egyptian antiquities in most national museums most people can view these artifacts without traveling internationally.
That is the whole point to visit different countries to experience their civilization so not only "prevellaged" countries will for ever get the tourism and those underprivelleged rightful owners will be deprived of their own cultural exhibits
I don't agree that they should be returned. i have no strong views one way or the other.
I doubt very much they ever will be returned because it would give the green light for countries the world over to demand the return of artifacts taken from their lands with the permission of previous governments. the Treasures of Troy spring to mind immediately.
The green light is already given ...and there is a president set by the US governmetn returnign some artifacts to South America and Italy...so there..
I don't think Britain - not England - cares over much.
I think principle of lawful possesion is too strong to broken.
If the Greeks would admit that the marbles are legally owned by the British Goverment there is a chance that Britain would then loan them back to Greece, but the Greeks will not admit this so the British will not loan the marbles.
It is an impasse.
Why would we? They are ours and we have proven that were nto "purchased properly" so there is no deal with this one. After all England like I said before will be pressured to return them anyways as there is already a green light internationally....Cutting a piece of the land to buy it is illegal to start up with... it was not a statue to remove I bet they will have a hard time defending that one
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Do you have a problem with Wikipedia as a source? It links to primary data sources if you wish to go to them.
I see nowhere were the Turks were involved.... Lord Byron a philleline accused his own people of the stolen marbles and that talks volumes
The Turks were not involved, Turkey and the Ottoman Empire are not synonymous . Turkey was also part of the Ottoman Empire like Greece.
That Lord Byron accused Elgin of theft doesn't speak volumes it speaks of one romantic poet with an opinion.
That opinion was tested in the British law courts and found to be wanting.
No Turks could care less about Greece's marbles.... thus the "no sale" deal...
Once again Turkey and the Ottoman Empire are not and never were the same entity.
REad my article first please...and do not come to assumptions They were "fixed": and they cut them....What taking the whole Acropolis would have been legitemate too? How would you feel removing the Palace of London or the London bridge because you were under occupation... Is it hard to wear someone else's shoes for a bit ?? I guess it is ...
Athens was not under occupation, or if you believe it was it had been under occupation for nearly 400 years by that stage.
I am well aware that the marbles were fixed to the Parthenon and were removed further damaging the Parthenon.
Once again Elgin supported his case that he removed the marbles legally and with permission of their owners in a British law court. As far as the British Government is concerned that is the end of the matter and while the Greek authorities continue to claim they were stolen they are never going to get their hands on them.
That is the impasse - the view in Britain is generally one of disinterest - who cares - but the official view is that while Greece claims the statues were stolen they can never be returned because the Greeks don't recognise British legal ownership. If the Greeks did formally recognise British legal ownership they would probably be loaned to Greece indefinetly but the Greeks can't do that for reasons of national pride.
The Greeks can't swallow their pride and the British won't swallow their legal principles.
Impasse.
he cut them off !!!!
I haven't seen anyone claim anything to the contrary. The locals were cutting them off as well - to make lime.
That is where it is goin to go as Unesco is involved in this now..
That won't matter a jot. They were established as legally obtained in the British courts. That is the end of the matter. No Government is going to allow themselves to be bullied into handing over something they think is legally theirs.
That is the whole point to visit different countries to experience their civilization so not only "prevellaged" countries will for ever get the tourism and those underprivelleged rightful owners will be deprived of their own cultural exhibits
I don't think Greece is an underpriviledged country
The green light is already given ...and there is a president set by the US governmetn returnign some artifacts to South America and Italy...so there..
Good luck
People return minor artifacts all the time. Britain has been returning Maori and Aboriginal artifacts for years because they were stolen from people regarded at that time as less than human. The marbles on the other hand were obtained with the permission of their owners at that time.
Why would we? They are ours and we have proven that were nto "purchased properly"
Sadly for you this was tested in a British Court 2 centuries ago when Elgin was accused of theft. He proved to the satisfaction of the court that he had obtained the statues legally and was therefore entitled to sell them on. It doesn't really matter what the Greek government or the Greek people think about that, until they recognise that fact their chances of getting back the marbles are close to nil.
Most people in Britain would be quite happy to see them go into that lovely new museum. But the British government will not let that happen until Greece respects British legal proceedure and accepts they were not stolen.
I doubt the Greek government can do that for reasons of national pride so they will not get back their marbles.
so there is no deal with this one.
Sadly not, they will stay in the British Museum for anyone to come and view for free for the foreseeable future.
After all England like I said before will be pressured to return them anyways as there is already a green light internationally...
I doubt that will happen, caving in to bullying is never good politics.
Your best bet is to shut up about it, so it doesn't look like the British Government is bowing to pressure and wait till the change of government next year and hope they hand them back as a gesture of friendship.
the longer Greece demands their return the longer they will be waiting for them. At the moment the British Governmental view is tha their return is impossible as it would be admitting theft in the first place. Until Greece admits there was no theft Greeks will have to come to London to look at them.
.Cutting a piece of the land to buy it is illegal to start up with... it was not a statue to remove I bet they will have a hard time defending that one
It was defended nearly 200 years ago in a British law court, Elgin won his case and proved his legal ownership to the satisfaction of a British court.
__________________ A scientist, it's official
" The result, therefore, of this physical enquiry is that we find no vestige of a beginning, no prospect of an end" James Hutton, from his 1788 paper to the Royal Society of Edinburgh on the principles of geology
Last edited by Baggins; 12th July 2009 at 02:57 AM.
Like the saying goes what comes around goes....Still though it would be unfair to demand back antiquities so long taken away. And Greece (reading from newspapers) never will or had in the past demanded back anything from Italy. it has been 2,000 years ago I personally agree that those so far back is not worth as they are bygones... 
But recently as of within 200 years or so with no documentation of ownship they should be returned to its rightful owner. 
thus the "no sale" deal... 
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