How does evolution explain one genera of animals with spiritual beliefs

brother_of_invention · #31 1st July 2009, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

Sorry do you mean prove that spiritual experience involves a connection to a non material reality beyond the study of science? I would have though the existence of the spiritual was matter of faith rather than proof.

no, I mean: prove to me that similar neural pathways are stimulated in your mind, causing a similar experience of spirituality.

Obviously the non-material aspect must be taken on faith, but we study what we can.

Or do you mean that humans from very different backgrounds and throughout history share similar experiences that they can recognise from the descriptions of others, that they call spiritual experience?

Not my original intent, but very true. Carl Jung called it the collective unconscious, but we must delve deeper than psychology if we want to relate our findings to other primates.

What neurotransmitters are involved in the spiritual state? What specific regions, pathways, and receptors are active? What radiation is emitted?

Mental phenomena, and spiritual experience is by it nature experienced at least in part mentally, are subjective. As such we can never experience what another person has experienced, but people can usually try to put their experience in some sort of words and find that there are others who have experiences of their own who can relate to what the other person has expressed. Prove? No, and solipsism shows it could never be proven, but I think the simplest explanation is when two people describe an experience they consider spiritual, and relate to what the other describes, then both are describing something very similar that is part of human experience and has been called many who experience it spiritual or religious.

Right. Without resorting to solipsism, I am convinced that you experience spirituality.

However, the requirement of a description automatically eliminates all other known creatures, and sharing a language with humans should not be necessary for spirituality. This is why I suggest we work with more of a 'hard science' when applying spirituality to another species.

Notedstrangeperson · #32 2nd July 2009, 08:30 PM

From what I've gathered, secular evolutionists believe humans are capable of abstract thought (the use of symbolism for example) - and one of the 'side-effects' of this abstract thinking was the invention of a God and an afterlife. Obviously as a theistic evolutionist, I personally do not believe this.

Other animals do display ritual behaviour, but it is not the same as human religions as their rituals do not seem aimed at any sort of supernatural entity.

Chesterton · #33 2nd July 2009, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by OrdinaryClay

How does evolution explain the fact that only one genera of animals with spiritual beliefs and behaviors has ever been produced on earth?

Well, there is a Praying Mantis.

Hallelujah!

metherion · #34 3rd July 2009, 02:54 AM

But not all religions necessarily require a god or gods...

such as IIRC Buddhism, no?

So the supernatural need not be a requirement for spirituality.

Just sayin'.

Metherion

OrdinaryClay · #35 3rd July 2009, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Chesterton

Well, there is a Praying Mantis.

Beautiful picture. Wonderful example of mimicry.

OrdinaryClay · #36 3rd July 2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by metherion

But not all religions necessarily require a god or gods...

such as IIRC Buddhism, no?

So the supernatural need not be a requirement for spirituality.

Buddhism has such ideas as karma and rebirth so they have super natural components, but I suppose there are purely materialist Buddhists just as there are atheist "Christians".

In any event, my point is that there are observable features of true spirituality within a species, not necessarily individuals, beyond "pondering".

metherion · #37 3rd July 2009, 03:57 PM

Buddhism has such ideas as karma and rebirth so they have super natural components, but I suppose there are purely materialist Buddhists just as there are atheist "Christians".

Point taken, but because of other primates' lack of language we might not know that/if they are thinking of such things.

In any event, my point is that there are observable features of true spirituality within a species, not necessarily individuals, beyond "pondering".

Such as certain rituals preformed at the death of a member of the tribe, etc. etc. etc.

Metherion

Chesterton · #38 3rd July 2009, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by metherion

Point taken, but because of other primates' lack of language we might not know that/if they are thinking of such things.

Yeah, what can we possibly know for sure of animal consciousness? It's like speculating on what's inside a closed box, isn't it?

OrdinaryClay · #39 3rd July 2009, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Chesterton

Yeah, what can we possibly know for sure of animal consciousness? It's like speculating on what's inside a closed box, isn't it?

Not at all. Minds interact with the physical world. This interaction leaves evidence.

Chesterton · #40 3rd July 2009, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by OrdinaryClay

Not at all. Minds interact with the physical world. This interaction leaves evidence.

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. But even where it does, how do you interpret the evidence? If an alien were spying on earth and watched different groups of humans doing different things - say he sees some strippers dancing nude in a club, some people working on a construction site, and some people praying - how could he possibly know which, if any, of those activities were spiritual? (Bearing in mind that the alien has no communication with human thought - through literature, art, history or anything else. After all, animals have none of these things, not even history really; horses think and do in 2009 the same things horses thought and did in 2009 B.C.)