I've noticed a trend on this site of people making gross mischaracterizations of people who hold views other than their own. There is such vitriol against different denominations than theirs, different creation views, reproductive views, witnessing views, and really just about everything.
Isn't the central message of Jesus that we are supposed to edify Him through our words and actions among each other and projected to the world? All I have seen is bickering over issues where there is no clear right or wrong answers, and I have seen people make sweeping generalizations, encourage terrorism and murder, and use very...interesting interpretations of scripture to endorse their sexist, racist and other discriminatory prejudices.
I am not going to say which sides are right or wrong, because I have no authority to do so (I am not God, as some seem to feel endowed to act as), but I will say that the ignorance, prejudice and elevation of individual understanding is not going to encourage any non-Christians or lapsed Christians to come to know God. All they can see of Him through this forum is a God who revels in condescension, ignorance and the misery of anyone who disagrees.
I've noticed a trend on this site of people making gross mischaracterizations of people who hold views other than their own. There is such vitriol against different denominations than theirs, different creation views, reproductive views, witnessing views, and really just about everything.
Isn't the central message of Jesus that we are supposed to edify Him through our words and actions among each other and projected to the world? All I have seen is bickering over issues where there is no clear right or wrong answers, and I have seen people make sweeping generalizations, encourage terrorism and murder, and use very...interesting interpretations of scripture to endorse their sexist, racist and other discriminatory prejudices.
I am not going to say which sides are right or wrong, because I have no authority to do so (I am not God, as some seem to feel endowed to act as), but I will say that the ignorance, prejudice and elevation of individual understanding is not going to encourage any non-Christians or lapsed Christians to come to know God. All they can see of Him through this forum is a God who revels in condescension, ignorance and the misery of anyone who disagrees.
Am I missing something?
No you are not. Even though there are many good non-Catholics on this site, there are a few that I feel seem to like bashing the Catholic Christian Church. They accuse my Church of a number of false misconceptions and some "beliefs" that we don't even believe and have never taught or will ever teach. Personally, as my Church and the Bible teaches, is to love one another, discuss our different views, and love each other as neighbors even more.
Some of these people I am referring to attack my Faith, even though they have only learned about my Faith from non-Catholic sources. That bothers me.
For example, when I began studying Protestant sources in earlier years, I first went to Protestant-run websites then went back to Catholic sources for cross-examination.
I wish they would set aside their bias and what they want to believe about my Church, study from reliable educated Catholic authors like Karl Keating, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, or even visit websites like chhnetwork.com WhatCatholicsReallyBelieve.com and see for themselves what we really believe and why, according to Scripture, we believe it.
Sorry about the essay, but I am speaking in complete honesty, hoping and praying, that they will think about those they are attacking before they even attack.
Thanks, this was a good topic to discuss.
Cardinal John H. Newman
The only disagreement I have to what you said, though, is there are some moral issues in our time that definitely have a right and a wrong. Not just my point of view, but Christ's point of view.
Last edited by Cardinal John H. Newman; 24th June 2009 at 12:56 AM.
I've noticed a trend on this site of people making gross mischaracterizations of people who hold views other than their own. There is such vitriol against different denominations than theirs, different creation views, reproductive views, witnessing views, and really just about everything.
Isn't the central message of Jesus that we are supposed to edify Him through our words and actions among each other and projected to the world? All I have seen is bickering over issues where there is no clear right or wrong answers, and I have seen people make sweeping generalizations, encourage terrorism and murder, and use very...interesting interpretations of scripture to endorse their sexist, racist and other discriminatory prejudices.
I am not going to say which sides are right or wrong, because I have no authority to do so (I am not God, as some seem to feel endowed to act as), but I will say that the ignorance, prejudice and elevation of individual understanding is not going to encourage any non-Christians or lapsed Christians to come to know God. All they can see of Him through this forum is a God who revels in condescension, ignorance and the misery of anyone who disagrees.
Am I missing something?
No you are not. Even though there are many good non-Catholics on this site, there are a few that I feel seem to like bashing the Catholic Christian Church. They accuse my Church of a number of false misconceptions and some "beliefs" that we don't even believe and have never taught or will ever teach. Personally, as my Church and the Bible teaches, is to love one another, discuss our different views, and love each other as neighbors even more.
Some of these people I am referring to attack my Faith, even though they have only learned about my Faith from non-Catholic sources. That bothers me.
For example, when I began studying Protestant sources in earlier years, I first went to Protestant-run websites then went back to Catholic sources for cross-examination.
I wish they would set aside their bias and what they want to believe about my Church, study from reliable educated Catholic authors like Karl Keating, Steve Ray, Patrick Madrid, or even visit websites like chhnetwork.com and WhatCatholicsReallyBelieve.com and see for themselves what we really believe and why, according to Scripture, we believe it.
Sorry about the essay, but I am speaking in complete honesty, hoping and praying, that they will think about those they are attacking before they even attack.
Thanks, this was a good topic to discuss.
Cardinal John H. Newman
Sorry about the second post. My computer slowed and I though I didn't post the first time. I have to go now but looking forward to talking to you again tomorrow.
I am sure that the generalization in the OP is literally untrue. Not everyone who posts here is a hate-monger. Figuratively, it may appear this way, especially in this type of forum where all sorts of persons are free to hide behind anonymity and act out.
I have taken a position that if a question is explicitly targeting "atheists", "non-believers" or something similar, that I will not answer (but may read for my own edification) the question since I obviously do not fit these labels.
Likewise, if a question is taregting "believers", "theists", “Muslims”, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, etc., it would be polite if persons not fitting the question’s label would not respond. Persons that do so seem to me to be very desperate for attention or the paltry rep points. I also ignore questions that obviously violate the stated rules, or are just chatty.
So it seems to me, outside of responding to questions that fit one’s identity, only if a question is non-specific as to some target population should responses be expected from “any and all” persons.
We all learned this behavior in kindergarten but seem to have forgotten how to play nice with one another. We were taught to not speak unless spoken to, answer the question asked, and be polite. Yet, even when a question is marked unequivocally for, say, “Pro-Choice Women”, you will find males posting answers. Apparently some have never learned, as George Elliot noted, "Blessed is the person who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us worthy evidence of the fact."
Yet why is it that when some are older they feel they can reject all semblances of politeness hiding behind anonymity, or shallow and strained arguments for free speech, “I’m just having fun”, “Open Forum”, etc? In truth, these are not really the salient issues, but only the excuses used to rationalize bad behavior.
What enables these forums? The answer should be clear--it is the topic posed. The author is the driving force in these forums and should be able to designate a specific population for the responses they are seeking. Thus, the focus for any of my responses is on what the asker may think of my answer. If the asker doesn’t like my answer I usually hear about it and learn from them. Nevertheless, I try to write cogent responses in hopes they are useful to others who may take the time to read them.
Yes, my answers are often wordy; to honor the questioner with enough details to help them learn more. I believe that what a person sets into writing is a greater act of consciousness than what a person speaks from their mouths. So, when a non-believer writes some of the vitriol that we see in this Forum, it demonstrates the state of their intellectual maturity. Or if we see vitriolic comments from self-professed believer, this person is demonstrating the real nature of the state of their faith to others; they may know the Word of the Lord, but it is likely do not know the Lord of the Word. Believers must remember that others are alienated when the enthusiastic for their faith violate the biblical admonition to share our beliefs in the proper manner:
1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; 1 Peter 3:16 yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. (ESV Translation)
Christians, as stated in 1 Peter above, never wander off the "love thy neighbor" reservation; let your witness be a good one comprising reasoned answers given in gentleness and respect.
Finally, a simple litmus test everyone should use before posting:
If you were to read your question or response to your Mother or your children, would these persons remain proud of the person they loved, nurtured,or respected? If your question honestly passes this test, then by all means post whatever you have written.
If we respect the sincere questioner’s desires for specificity (if any), adhere to the forum guidelines, and remember what we learned when we were six years old, spending time in this forum will be worth our precious time.
AMR
__________________ Ask Mr. Religion (AMR) Reformed Theology Institute
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Though the OP may be an exaggeration, a valid point is made.
What you are seeing cannot be given one answer of "why?" This is because there are multiple correct answers to why "Christians" act in such ways. The possibilities I'm aware of are these:
1. They are not really of the Spirit of Christ, though they call themselves "Christian." This can be true regardless of denomination/sect/church/group. Just as Paul said a true Jew is one inwardly (circumcision of the heart) not one only outwardly (religious acting of the flesh), so this is true with Christians. Not all who say they are Christian actually follow the Christ they claim to believe in.
2. Even those internally changed by the Spirit of Christ, being true believers in their hearts, can be misled by bondage to devils that influence them religiously with deception. In other words, they can be under the influence of demonic oppression, and act out due to such, having succumbed to that temptation.
3. Those made new by the Spirit and being truly in Christ, even if not influenced by demonic forces that make them religious in a negative (destructive) way, still have the old flesh to deal with. The carnal nature Paul speaks of is still active and must be crucified as we take up our crosses to follow Jesus. Those not taking up their cross and allowing their old carnal nature to be crucified with the flesh of Jesus are going to act out a lot still in the flesh, and as always, the carnal nature is really ugly, just like its father the devil. The carnal nature is the seed of the serpent and it is like a disease infecting the corrupt/sinful flesh of the children of Adam. When it acts out, even others who suffer from such think it is ugly. This also explains the self-condemnation/hatred people have, as their own carnality is ugly to themselves.
Here's the thing, if you are taking up your cross to follow Jesus, denying self, dying to the old flesh, and living by the Spirit in Christ, you'll be so filled with his love and other fruit of the Spirit, that even such Christians will not provoke you to despair, lashing back out, etc. You may reprove their evil still, and rebuke, but you do it in love and in a Christ-like manner. You do not get easily offended (because you've denied self and are taking up your cross, so it isn't about you - no offense can be taken personal), and you continue to love even the unlovely, and realize God is great enough to take care of them, so that you do not need to worry, fret, or hold anyone in unforgiveness.
With love in Christ!
__________________ David Gal 6:14 AMP But far be it from me to glory [in anything or anyone] except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) through Whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world!
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Yes. There is no hate generated posts. Those which do get on are quickly deleted by the admin team.
What you are seeing is the argy-bargy of a debate and discussion forum. There are other areas on CF where things are more tranquil.
Many of the issues discussed here would not make it to the pastors/ministers desk. Those issues which are avoided by the institutionalized church are exposed here - there are no holds bared. I can only applaud the courage of CF to let the debate take place. These issues generate much heat at times and posters let loose at times. Such is expected to be the case when the cat is let out of the bag.
It is not a matter of 'right or wrong' - it's a matter that the fetters have finally been released and we can ask all those questions which the church has studiously avoided considering in the past. This is healthy. Eventually we will all learn how to handle this new form of communication with a little more skill than we display at present. It's a learning issue as anything else.
I have crossed swords with any number of contributors but I do not question their love or commitment to Christ. The fact that there are heated exchanges demonstrates the depth of that commitment. If you like the more comfortable and safe position then it may be best to simply only go on those boards which are more conducive to your likes and dislikes.
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
I've noticed a trend on this site of people making gross mischaracterizations of people who hold views other than their own. There is such vitriol against different denominations than theirs, different creation views, reproductive views, witnessing views, and really just about everything.
Isn't the central message of Jesus that we are supposed to edify Him through our words and actions among each other and projected to the world? All I have seen is bickering over issues where there is no clear right or wrong answers, and I have seen people make sweeping generalizations, encourage terrorism and murder, and use very...interesting interpretations of scripture to endorse their sexist, racist and other discriminatory prejudices.
I am not going to say which sides are right or wrong, because I have no authority to do so (I am not God, as some seem to feel endowed to act as), but I will say that the ignorance, prejudice and elevation of individual understanding is not going to encourage any non-Christians or lapsed Christians to come to know God. All they can see of Him through this forum is a God who revels in condescension, ignorance and the misery of anyone who disagrees.
Am I missing something?
If you think this site is bad you should check out some of the more conservative Christian sites like RaptureReady or CARM's forums.
__________________ Don't worry, I'm from the Church and I'm here to help!
There is no conspiracy. Come along. The helicopter's waiting.
I appreciate all of the thoughtful responses given so far.
For clarity's sake, let me add that I do not mean the entirety of CF is ignorance and anger, but I am alarmed at the amount of people who, like Cardinal Newman said, express hatred for beliefs that are not even held by the groups they are hating on. Having attended a private Baptist school for 5 years, I was always irritated by the resources we used when studying other belief groups. We would read books written by a Southern Baptist, who attended a Southern Baptist Seminary and has never traveled out of the States or seemingly never even met a Muslim, and he would write volumes about the problems with Islam. I feel having read a single Qu'ranic verse out of context does not qualify you to right about an entire region, culture and religion.
I understand that you do not have to hold a doctorate in every area that you discuss, but if you are claiming to be well-informed on an issue, group or culture, you should probably at least read a book or two, or have discussions with people involved in that area. I have seen posts describing pro-choicers as genocidal, lovers of baby-killing, etc. I have met several pro-choicers, and I am yet to meet one who takes even the slightest delight in the act of abortion. I have met more "murder-loving" pro-lifers, but that is another matter.
I know I have started rambling, but the point is, I can't understand why these posts (I hope I am not violating the flaming rule by citing examples) like women being the cause of sodomy, tiller meets his maker, mother's letter to her son, etc, which vent hatred and prejudice under the guise of Christian concern, are met with almost equal measures of derision and endorsement. It seems like there is a chink in the Spiritual armor of modern Christians, and I am not sure how or where or even if it can be repaired and in doing so will revive Christ's reputation as a loving God rather than a petty, gossipy and hateful God.
What would you guys recommend (assuming you agree there is a problem)? Do you think this site has adequate measures to maintain civility and Spriritual purity in our discourses? What method do you think is most scripturally sound in rebuking or corrected people who act as I've described?
If you think this site is bad you should check out some of the more conservative Christian sites like RaptureReady or CARM's forums.
I agree that there are worse sites, but we are to gauge against God's standards, not those who fail more than us. If we just had to outrun the slowest person, the race would be a lot easier to win
Well, first of all let's admit theology can get rather confusing sometimes.
And then there is the habit some people have of mostly stating what the others have supposedly said, even when the others repeatedly state they didn't say or mean that.
I think a lot of the problem is the desire to win. People think somehow the purpose is to win, to show the other is wrong, to intimidate or whatever to get someone else to retreat.
And it's fed more than a bit by the many, often conflicting, information you will get from people of the same group.
More than once I've quoted official publications of a group only to be told by someone belonging to that group that I am wrong. I know it isn't what they believe, maybe even not what they are taught in their locality, but you would think there'd be some uniformity within a group, though you'd be often wrong.
And then there is the problem of language, a word can have many different meanings. If one desires to misunderstand, it's very possible in any discussion to do so.
Mostly, I take it as the same sort of thing where people will scream for their football team and scream at the other. Any call against you is automatically wrong, and if the other team wins it could only be because of some mistake of the ref or cheating or something.
At least people are strong in their beliefs. It's often hard to tell where they get them but that's another story.
All that said, I don't find the majority to be hard to get along with. If you watch, there is a small, very vocal minority, who haunt the site to jump into any discussion of their favorite topics. So any discussion of those hotpoints tend to quickly degenerate into duplicate endless discussions identical to previous endless discussions. I tend not to go to or read much of anything over 3 pages, by then, generally, everything that is going to be said has been, the rest is usually just uh, huh-nah huh exchanges.
Marv
__________________ Eze 36:25-27 ESV (25) I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. (26) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Heb 10:22 ESV let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
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