KJV Onlyists: Is the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7) Original Inspired Scripture?
I believe the King James Version only discussion should begin with this passage. This is a high profile passage that has been the subject of many sermons by teachers using the King James Version over the years and was regarded for centuries as the definitive one verse proof text for the doctrine of the Trinity.
The doctrine of the Trinity is strongly supported in scripture with or without this verse and is in fact true.
However, (1) if the KJV only position is to be upheld this verse must be original inspired scripture. If it isn't, then KJV onlyism can only be false and those who adhear to it should occupy themselves in more fruitful pursuits. If this passage can be proven original inspired scripture (2) then all translations that do not include it in the text are indeed corrupt and every serious Christian should at the very least rethink their entire view of modern textual scholarship. I know there are many other passages that are at stake in the overall debate for those trying to prove that the KJV is the only preserved Word of God, but, the above two points will certainly be known as either true or false given the answer to the origin of this individual passage. Thus, this is a great place to start.
The Issue:
"It does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, nor in the passage as quoted by many of the early Church Fathers. The words "apparently crept into the Latin text of the New Testament during the Middle Ages... [possibly] as one of those medieval glosses but were then written into the text itself by a careless copyist. Erasmus omitted them from his first edition; but when a storm of protest arose because the omission seemed to threaten the doctrine of the Trinity (although that doctrine had in fact been formulated long before the textual variant), he put them back in the third and later editions, whence they also came into the textus receptus, “the received text.”[1] Modern Bible translations such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, NRSV and others tend to either omit the Comma entirely, or relegate it to the footnotes." Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
Below is a comparison of various English translations of 1 John 5:7. The top three translations contain the comma in the text, this set includes the esteemed King James version. The bottom four do not contain the comma in the text. The selections of translations are the major translations that serious English Evangelical Christians use as the most authoritative and accurate in respect to the original transcripts. The RSV and NRSV are not included in the list of serious translations because of their known liberal bias that excludes them from any list of serious scholarly translations. Also not included are the Roman Catholic Translations as they are generally not trusted by orthodox Christians.
1 John 5:7 (King James Version)
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 (New King James Version)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 (Amplified Bible)
7So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;
The challenge is for a King James Version only Christian to prove to the rest of the Church that the Johannine Comma is indeed original inspired scripture.
Some cite parts of 1Jo. 5:7-8 which no reliable manuscript contains. 1Jo.5:7-8 should read 7 For there are three that bear witness the Spirit the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
{Of course they agree. The water represents our baptisms, the blood cleanses us of our sins, and God gives us His Spirit to help us along the way. All three are major factors in our conversion. Of course they agree!}
The words added to 1Jo.5:7-8 were added to the margin of the Latin Vulgate in about 545 A.D. then into Greek in about 1215A.D. The added words are totally bogus.
Last edited by Hammster; 28th June 2009 at 07:09 PM.
I guess there are some things that can't be spoken about here.
I tried.
what do you expect when you t-off to slur Trinity. The topic is the legitimacy of the Commata . . . not your opinion about some conspiracy as to why it was inserted.
I have some ocean front property in AZ. for sale.
You want to buy it? By the way it was not my opinion. I stated a simple fact.
One can't slur an imaginary thing.
I have some ocean front property in AZ. for sale.
You want to buy it? By the way it was not my opinion. I stated a simple fact.
One can't slur an imaginary thing.
Dude . . . it is not a fact. Depending on the exact dating of the insertion, your entire assertion about it being inserted because of some conspiracy to butress the Doctrine of Trinity could be completely hamstrung.
Anyhow, if one wanted to insert something to try and est. a doctrine . . . one could have done so in a much clearer and easier way than the enigmatic passage at hand.
It is more than likely some scribal insertion for whatever reason that was accepted by the church (majority) of that time. And even IF the assertion WAS legit (which I don't think it is personally anyway) . . . the insertion isn't even a clear line on Trinity anyway.
Please drop the sarcasim . . . I was not attacking you.
3 of the Greek texts do not have the last part of that verse in it [but then, while translating Revelation from these texts I noticed so many variances it was like putting a jig-saw puzzle together].
5:7,8 MT/ CT: 5:7 Because three are the Ones testifying: 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are into the one. – TR: 5:7 Because three are the Ones testifying in heaven–the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit–and these three are one.
5:8 And three are the Ones testifying on the earth–the Spirit and the water and the blood–and the three are into the one.
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Some cite parts of 1Jo. 5:7-8 which no reliable manuscript contains. 1Jo.5:7-8 should read 7 For there are three that bear witness the Spirit the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
{Of course they agree. The water represents our baptisms, the blood cleanses us of our sins, and God gives us His Spirit to help us along the way. All three are major factors in our conversion. Of course they agree!}
The words added to 1Jo.5:7-8 were added to the margin of the Latin Vulgate in about 545 A.D. then into Greek in about 1215A.D. The added words are totally bogus.
Jo. 1:1, Mat. 10:33, Mat. 10:27, Mat. 24:36, Mat. 26:39, Lk. 9:26, Lk. 23:46, Jo. 5:19, Jo. 8:16, Jo. 8:54, Jo. 11:41, Jo. 14:12-13, Jo. 15:23,
Jo. 16:3, Ro. 1:7, 1 Cor. 1:3, 2 Cor. 1:2-3, Gal. 1:1-4, Eph. 1:1-2,
Phil. 1:2, 1 Thes. 1:1-3,
Just a very few of the scriptures that need to be studied along with this topic.
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