This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER {stone,}" and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this {doom} they were also appointed.
Peter says if you reject/substitute the corner stone, you are disobedient and are appointed to doom.
Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them {were} the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Built on the foundation of 12 apostles with Christ as the chief corner stone.
Actually, as some fathers said - they all were responsible for their own Sees - but St Chrysostom said that Peter was responsible for all.
NOW let's look at Revelation 21 a bit closer...
Rev 21: 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper: the second, sapphire: the third, a chalcedony: the fourth, an emerald: 20 The fifth, sardonyx: the sixth, sardius: the seventh, chrysolite: the eighth, beryl: the ninth, a topaz: the tenth, a chrysoprasus: the eleventh, a jacinth: the twelfth, an amethyst.
NOW lets' look at what Jaspar is...and how this indeed can describe Peter.
The name means "spotted or speckled stone", and is derived via Greekiaspis, (feminine noun)[3] from a Semitic language (cf. Hebrewyashepheh, Akkadianyashupu).
Jasper is known to have been a favourite gem in the ancient world; its name can be traced back in Hebrew.
Despite the most common form of Jasper being red, scholars think that the yashepheh here actually refers to a green form of Jasper - which was very rare, and so highly prized; the Greeks used Iaspis to refer to the green form...
*[AGAIN we can see THIS IS PETER - AND HIS SUCCESSORS.]
The original materials are often fractured and/or distorted, after deposition, into myriad beautiful patterns which are to be later filled with other colorful minerals. Weathering, with time, will create intensely colored rinds.
Picture jaspers exhibit combinations of patterns (such as banding from flow or depositional patterns (from water or wind)..
On MinoanCrete within present day Greecejasper was carved to produce seals circa 1800 BC
Obviously this Rock was used to seal - which also means to lock up. AS is appropriate when Jesus said 'Whatsoever you loose will be loosed in Heaven, whatsoever you bind shall be bound in Heaven.'
But Jaspar was the favorite in the ancient world and highly prized. It is no wonder why the first foundation is Jaspar.
Originally Posted by Standing Up
Peter again:
like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, ...
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
The cornerstone which Jesus called Himself - was rejected.
THEN HE says to Peter - you are Rock - and upon this rock I will build My Church.
Even Protestant scholars know and agree it is Peter whom He is building on.
It doesn't make sense to twist it to mean Himself, it is grammatically inconceivable.
Even LLOJ keeps posting the Greek translation. It is on Simon Peter who is named Rock.
Originally Posted by prodromos
You may have addressed me, but what you wrote did not in any way address what I had posted. Are not those who sit at Christ's right and left hand the greatest in His kingdom? Does the Catholic Church not agree with the Orthodox Church with regards to who occupy those places, or is this yet another area where Rome has gone its own way?
I asked where it had been shown that the two popes referred to by Thekla in post #464 were not in communion with heretics, to which you have not given any reasonable response at all, simply your own statement that they were not. I'm sorry, but you are not considered to be an authority in this matter so you will need to give more than that.
In a padded cell?
John
Jesus made it known that there shall be a first among them...
Correct?
He definitely did not say they would be equal...AND then compared His own minstry [which we know is above them] as their servant because HE is the greatest.
That should answer this for you.
Matthew 20: 26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. 28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.
AS for the two Popes not in communion, I already dealt with that.
Look back in thread 3 I believe.
St Martin was torn away from his flock in Rome, suffered at the hands of the East - and martyred. *Why was it so important that the Pope in Rome commune or accept the Monophysites?? Can you answer that?? We don't see other Patriarchs being demanded to do so. BUT then, Rome holds the importance in the keys and throne of the entire Church. Can you see that?
Anyway -
St Eugene who took his place, sent word to the Eastern Emporer - and then was requested to commune, the laity forbid him to, then the East threatened his life and the lay ppl's life.
Nothing more was written except he ordained quite a few Bishops, and then he was martyred. * One could suppose that the ones who were writing his life were martyred too as per the threat and thus nothing more was written about in what happened.
Evidently the threat he would be chastised as St Martin was - was promised and kept.
He is buried in the martyrs burial.
Why would he be martyred if he abided with the heretics?
It is evident he did not....nor would St Martin previously.
And nor would St Maximus consent to them...
Should we go thru his martyrdom again?
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Last edited by WarriorAngel; 15th July 2009 at 01:00 PM.
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Saint and Martyr William Tyndale (1494-1536)
LLOJ's Patron Saint
I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!
William Tyndale cried out "Lord, open the King of Englands eyes"
2 kings 6:17 And 'Eliysha` is praying and saying "YHWH, open! please! his eyes and he shall see"
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No one actually reads what specifically was answered to them.
So its talking past one another...as near as i can tell.
Even NewMan left.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Do the Catholics and Orthodox here REALLY believe that the other side is just blind and makes no real point here? I mean, I know I was asked to provide ECF sources to support that peter was the foundation of the Church but I only offered that I accepted that position as a hypothetical. My point it doesn't matter where I stand, the modern Catholic point, even WITH Peter as the rock, is not tenable.
That said, if we are going to endlessly squabble on this verse that honestly proves very little, I have to wonder, do you all (on both sides) seriously believe that the other side is just ignorant? I mean, there are foremost scholars on both sides supporting both positions. Am I to believe that Warrior Angel has not made one useful point in suggesting that Peter was more special than the other apostles? On the other hand, are we serious in suggesting that the ECF quotes provided by Orthodox brethern here don't actually show that this view of Peter was not universal in the Early Church?
That's why these threads become so crazy because people enter them WITH THE PREMISE that: The other side is wrong in their conclusion, therefore, anything they offer I will just write off a smoke and mirrors, straw man, ad hominum or any other list of classic fallacies to make me sound smarter and more aware than the other guy.
The scary thing is actually entering into a debate open to the idea that the "other side" might have a point and may force us to reform our own beliefs.
I wonder if that has really be done in the course of these FOUR threads.
Actually, as some fathers said - they all were responsible for their own Sees - but St Chrysostom said that Peter was responsible for all.
NOW let's look at Revelation 21 a bit closer...
Rev 21: 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper: the second, sapphire: the third, a chalcedony: the fourth, an emerald: 20 The fifth, sardonyx: the sixth, sardius: the seventh, chrysolite: the eighth, beryl: the ninth, a topaz: the tenth, a chrysoprasus: the eleventh, a jacinth: the twelfth, an amethyst.
NOW lets' look at what Jaspar is...and how this indeed can describe Peter.
The name means "spotted or speckled stone", and is derived via Greekiaspis, (feminine noun)[3] from a Semitic language (cf. Hebrewyashepheh, Akkadianyashupu).
Jasper is known to have been a favourite gem in the ancient world; its name can be traced back in Hebrew.
Despite the most common form of Jasper being red, scholars think that the yashepheh here actually refers to a green form of Jasper - which was very rare, and so highly prized; the Greeks used Iaspis to refer to the green form...
*[AGAIN we can see THIS IS PETER - AND HIS SUCCESSORS.]
The original materials are often fractured and/or distorted, after deposition, into myriad beautiful patterns which are to be later filled with other colorful minerals. Weathering, with time, will create intensely colored rinds.
Picture jaspers exhibit combinations of patterns (such as banding from flow or depositional patterns (from water or wind)..
On MinoanCrete within present day Greecejasper was carved to produce seals circa 1800 BC
Obviously this Rock was used to seal - which also means to lock up. AS is appropriate when Jesus said 'Whatsoever you loose will be loosed in Heaven, whatsoever you bind shall be bound in Heaven.'
But Jaspar was the favorite in the ancient world and highly prized. It is no wonder why the first foundation is Jaspar.
The cornerstone which Jesus called Himself - was rejected.
THEN HE says to Peter - you are Rock - and upon this rock I will build My Church.
Even Protestant scholars know and agree it is Peter whom He is building on.
It doesn't make sense to twist it to mean Himself, it is grammatically inconceivable.
Even LLOJ keeps posting the Greek translation. It is on Simon Peter who is named Rock.
Jesus made it known that there shall be a first among them...
Correct?
He definitely did not say they would be equal...AND then compared His own minstry [which we know is above them] as their servant because HE is the greatest.
That should answer this for you.
Matthew 20: 26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. 28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.
AS for the two Popes not in communion, I already dealt with that.
Look back in thread 3 I believe.
St Martin was torn away from his flock in Rome, suffered at the hands of the East - and martyred. *Why was it so important that the Pope in Rome commune or accept the Monophysites?? Can you answer that?? We don't see other Patriarchs being demanded to do so. BUT then, Rome holds the importance in the keys and throne of the entire Church. Can you see that?
Anyway -
St Eugene who took his place, sent word to the Eastern Emporer - and then was requested to commune, the laity forbid him to, then the East threatened his life and the lay ppl's life.
Nothing more was written except he ordained quite a few Bishops, and then he was martyred. * One could suppose that the ones who were writing his life were martyred too as per the threat and thus nothing more was written about in what happened.
Evidently the threat he would be chastised as St Martin was - was promised and kept.
He is buried in the martyrs burial.
Why would he be martyred if he abided with the heretics?
It is evident he did not....nor would St Martin previously.
And nor would St Maximus consent to them...
Should we go thru his martyrdom again?
The Jasper is not speaking of Peter in the scripture. This is an image of what the Holy City looked like.
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O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; You have set Your glory above the heavens! Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have ordained strength, because of the ones distressing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease. Psa 8:3 When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: Psa 8:7 all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!
The scary thing is actually entering into a debate open to the idea that the "other side" might have a point and may force us to reform our own beliefs.........
In some cases that may not be a bad thing....I haven't yet decided on whether the RCC, Orthodox or Protestants have it ALL right for example......
Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the Time and has-neared the Kingdom of the God. Be ye reforming/repenting!/metanoeite <3340> (5720)! and be ye believing!/pisteuete <4100> (5720) in the Good-Message. [Luke 21:31/Reve 16:11]
Revelation 16:11 And they blaspheme the GOD of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
And notthey repent/reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the works of them.
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Saint and Martyr William Tyndale (1494-1536)
LLOJ's Patron Saint
I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!
William Tyndale cried out "Lord, open the King of Englands eyes"
2 kings 6:17 And 'Eliysha` is praying and saying "YHWH, open! please! his eyes and he shall see"
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In some cases that may not be a bad thing....I haven't yet decided on whether the RCC, Orthodox or Protestants have it ALL right for example......
Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the Time and has-neared the Kingdom of the God. Be ye reforming/repenting!/metanoeite <3340> (5720)! and be ye believing!/pisteuete <4100> (5720) in the Good-Message. [Luke 21:31/Reve 16:11]
Revelation 16:11 And they blaspheme the GOD of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
And notthey repent/reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the works of them.
That's a great point LLoJ. This may very well be just the thread for you. Let the people who are sure of themselves duke it out, watch on and see who makes the best points. Logical.
I assume in coming to this thread you are looking for a conclusion to the whole Pope question, right?
Well this is what I say: All you need to do is conclude if Papal Infallibility and Universal Jurisidication are meant to be innate and eternal perrogatives of the See of Rome.
You do NOT need to conclude whether the Pope was influential, highly regarded, right in almost all or even all circumstances, has had the best track record or all patriarchs or if he was the most meaningful successor of Peter.
You do NOT need to conclude what happened in Matt 16 according to the ECFs because as you can see 1) they are all over the map on this even if they tend towards one side and most importantly 2) the Ecf's were not commenting on this verse to settle any dispute about Rome. They were talking about Peter. It is now that the West has decided that anything that is true about Peter must be true about the Pope.
What you need to conclude for yourself is if these two precepts were universally accepted by the ECFs. Not if they really thought highly of the Pope, Peter or the See of Rome. Highest honors to any of these three offer interesting decoration to the debate, but no real evidence of anything concrete such as the eternal and divinely given responsibility of the Roman See to UJ and PI.
Remember, concrete evidence that UJ and PI were universally accepted in the Early Church is what you need.
Warrior Angel and countless others are going to say that it is all there. but you need to aske your self if that is concrete evidence or reading into history. THAT's where it might get tricky. Obviously you know where I land on the conclusion and men and women much smarter than I have come to the same conclusion. But, men and women much smarter than I have come to the Vatican's conclusion.
don't let the thread end 
The Jasper is not speaking of Peter in the scripture. This is an image of what the Holy City looked like. 
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