The old laws are but only foreshadows of the Laws of God.
For instance - the fact most folks get hung up on the cleanliness laws - those laws were to stay the life of the flesh - to keep the body clean from filth. [germs and contamination]
But the New Law is to keep the soul [which is more important] from filth and keep the soul clean for life eternal.
Does that help you MamaZ?
What was once man centered became God centered because God among us took what was old and made it new.
[He made all things new again]
The 'type' of legislative body to guard His doctrines and Word in the OT - is the basic formula of the Church.
Christ is the author of the New Law. He claimed and exercised supreme legislative authority in spiritual matters from the beginning of His public life until His Ascension into heaven. In Him the Old Law had its fulfilment and attained its chief purpose. The civil legislation of Moses had for its object to form and preserve a peculiar people for the worship of the one true God, and to prepare the way for the coming of the Messias who was to be born of the seed of Abraham. The new Kingdom of God which Christ founded was not confined to a single nation, it embraced all the nations of the earth, and when the new Israel was constituted, the old Israel with its separatist law became antiquated; it had fulfilled its mission. The ceremonial laws of Moses were types and figures of the purer, more spiritual, and more efficacious sacrifice and sacraments of the New Law, and when these were instituted the former lost their meaning and value. By the death of Christ on the Cross the New Covenant was sealed, and the Old was abrogated, but until the Gospel had been preached and duly promulgated, out of deference to Jewish prejudices, and out of respect for ordinances, which after all were Divine, those who wished to do so were at liberty to conform to the practices of the Mosaic Law. When the Gospel had been duly promulgated the civil and ceremonial precepts of the Law of Moses became not only useless, but false and superstitious, and thus forbidden. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Aspect of Divine Law
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Orthodoxy is FAR more embracing of community, accountability and humility - that's obvious.
Baloney. The Catholic Church embraces both Eastern and Western theology. The Orthodox rejects the West. Who is embracing what???
Newman, I'm surprised to see you using a strawman attack. Your response has nothing to do with CJ's claim.
From MY perspective, it seems that the RCC agrees with the EO for the most part - but ADDS a lots of unique RCC dogma to that; including the one under discussion here (perhaps the single most problematic and divisive dogma in Christianity, and has been for a LONG time (centuries before Luther was born).
But my point was a difference in spirit and focus that appears to me to exist among the CC and EO. It seems rather striking to ME.
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POLITICAL resolution: Power, Authority, Individualism, infallible/unaccountable, lording it over others, lecture.
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It makes me sick - literally - when I read these words. It makes me extremely angry. I have never once supported the "Protestant" view. Shame on you.
NewMan99:
Clarification is needed on my part. I KNOW that you, as a Catholic Apologist, presented the quotes that you did in support of the CATHOLIC position; I did not mean to suggest otherwise (nor did I). As I carefully read the quotes you yourself provided, what was stunning to ME (and I can only speak for me, my friend and brother) is that they did not support the dogma of The Papacy or the claim that such was created by Jesus, taught and believed by the 14 Apostles. What it reveals is a very gradual, slow, developmental/evolutionary understanding of the dogma: beginning after the time of Jesus and the Apostles. As you know, this is a common PROTESTANT view of the Papacy. That there is no known connection with Scripture or Jesus or the Apostles, but that sometime later, various aspects of this BEGIN to be developed - slowly, over centuries - and primarily in the west with men in association with Rome. Well after legalization and especially in the context of East/West disagreements, this unique dogma of the West takes shape. As I read your quotes, noting the dates AND what specifically was being said, your quotes seem to rather powerfully support this Protestant view. I'm sure you disagree.
Now, again, I KNOW that was not your intent. OBVIOUSLY. Nor do you believe that is what should be gained from reading the quotes with an open mind - of that I'm sure (and never said otherwise). It's just what seems pretty clear to me. So much so, that I copied your "evidence" and have used it to give some credence to that Protestant view.
Friend, you have been abundantly clear about what conclusions YOU glean from the quotes you offered. No need for any replies from me because you were crystal clear. And, yes, your conclusions do seem in full accord with your conclusions. I only noted that the men didn't say what you concluded they did.
I"m very sad that my post literally make you physically sick. Wow. I'm deeply sorry about that. Can't say I'm aware that that has ever happened before: to anyone reading anyone's posts, at CF or anywhere. Sorry!
.
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POLITICAL resolution: Power, Authority, Individualism, infallible/unaccountable, lording it over others, lecture.
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O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; You have set Your glory above the heavens! Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have ordained strength, because of the ones distressing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease. Psa 8:3 When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: Psa 8:7 all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!
Faith in what MamaZ?
In ourselves or the Church He established upon His Rock - to which reflects the name He knew He would give Peter from the start.
The confession via the question was just the 'proof' to humanity that their Will - Son and Father are One in the same and that not only had He already addressed Simon as Rock without an explanation from the beginning - but that the Father gave Peter the confession to show why He was called Rock.
So if we are called to faith - what faith would that be?
Protestants either form many societies with opposing theology among themselves or they create a Church of themselves [ie - from their own POV] sans historical truths that show us not us we as individuals are the truth - but the Church is the bulwark of Truth.
And the Apostle Paul said we render obedience to the prelates [Bishops] because THEY have account of our souls.
I see too many holes or tears in the reformed theological implications that we render our own opinions on scriptures when the scriptures point us to follow Traditions of the Church and the Bishops of the Church.
I cannot understand how those things are not accounted for since they are in scriptures.
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"St Michael the ArchAngel, defend us in battle."
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
And yet apparently when they ‘appeal’ to him it is evidence of obedience!
Fortunately we have instances where the Pope wasn’t just disobeyed, but ignored. An example of such is John Chrysostom taking holy orders from a man not in communion with the Pope. We have the first Ecumenical Council called without need for the Pope’s ratification.
Also Carthage, 3rd. century, as mentioned before (see letters of St. Cyprian re: Pope Stephen).
(And, as previously, Spain too.)
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I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.
Last edited by Thekla; 22nd June 2009 at 04:24 PM.
Concerning this quote, much of it has been doctored. It should read like this:
Originally Posted by katholikos
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" - The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
Concerning this quote, much of it has been doctored. It should read like this:
Originally Posted by St. Cyprian
The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, “I say unto thee, that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, “Feed my sheep.” And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, “As the Father hath sent me, even so send I you: Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained;” yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity. Which one Church, also, the Holy Spirit in the Song of Songs designated in the person of our Lord, and says, “My dove, my spotless one, is but one. She is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her.” Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against and resists the Church trust that he is in the Church, when moreover the blessed Apostle Paul teaches the same thing, and sets forth the sacrament of unity, saying, “There is one body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God?”
Can anyone specify why this quote is misquoted? Is that somehting anyone here would like to look into? I mean obviously there is a discrepancy here and I do not think Mike's source is the one slanted
And I trust them more than anyone here. If they edited it, it was for brevity's sake. Either that of it came from anouther source. But they do not engage in misquotations.
I think someone is on this .. .It seems St.Cyprian edited himself his own writings... in a later time... read this I found it sooooo interesting but I am not responsible for the content...
There are some information that shows yet another proof that the western father St. cyprian did not agree with supremacy ... The pope had no "authority" over its own see.... i.e. Carthage. So it is evident that even the West did not agree with its own Pope on the Papacy... They resisted because it was an imported ecclesiological system as pointed by Cyprian response and St. Augustine... And these guys were not talking homeletics .....These are letters dealing with the specific ecclesial issue...
__________________ No one on this earth can avoid affliction; and although the
afflictions which the Lord sends are not great men imagine them
beyond their strength and are crushed by them. This is because
they will not humble their souls and commit themselves to the will
of God. But the Lord Himself guides with His grace those who are
given over to God's will, and they bear all things with fortitude
for the sake of God Whom they have so loved and with Whom they are
glorified for ever. It is impossible to escape tribulation in this
world but the man who is giver over to the will of God bears
tribulation easily, seeing it but putting his trust in the Lord,
and so his tribulations pass.
Cyrpian wrote 2 letters of the same spirit.
One existed in his own library [that I quoted]
And one he sent out [the one quoted above]
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"St Michael the ArchAngel, defend us in battle."
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
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