To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Last edited by WarriorAngel; 23rd June 2009 at 09:46 PM.
After the Byzantine emperors had violently withdrawn Illyricum from Papal direction, Corinth appears as a metropolis with seven suffragan sees; ..........at the beginning of the eighteenth century there were only two united in one title. Since 1890 Corinth, for the Greeks, has been a simple bishopric, but the first in rank, Athens being the sole archbishopric of the Kingdom of Greece. Lequien (III, 883) mentions twenty Latin prelates from 1210 to 1700, the later ones being only titular. But Eubel (I, 218; II, 152) mentions twenty-two archbishops for the period from 1212 to 1476.
In the 8th century...nestoj. That's when they removed papal direction - violently.
But even after a large part of both lands had been lost to the Byzantine Empire, Illyricum remained entirely under the jurisdiction of the Western patriarchs, the popes, as for example Gregory the Great and Martin I, who exercised their metropolitan authority, without any objections on the part of the Eastern emperors or the patriarchs of Constantinople. As late as the middle of the eighth century, the ecclesiastical Provinces of Eastern and Western Illyricum were undoubtedly within the Patriarchate of Rome. Soon afterwards, however, they began gradually to withdraw from communion with Rome, and the patriarchs of Constantinople succeeded in bringing Illyria under their jurisdiction. Even Pope Nicholas I attempted in vain to recover the ancient privilege of the Roman See to appoint the Bishop of Thessalonica as his vicar. From the end of the ninth century Eastern Illyria appears in the "Notitiae episcopatuum" as wholly within the Patriarchate of Constantinople, with which it was involved in the Great Schism.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Last edited by WarriorAngel; 23rd June 2009 at 09:48 PM.
After they violently removed papal direction - is a schism.
I am a bit surprised that you would call the Great Schism violent. It hardly compares in violence to the Protestant Reformation. Would you also term the latter action a violent schism?
... and Nestoj's point (echoing what I've read, non-EO sources) was the particular ecclesial structure in Corinth at that time, and the historic relationship of Corinth to (now) Italy.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.
Nestoj read the Catholic encyclopedia - and quoted a portion about Byzantium violently leaving Papal direction - which was in the 8th Century.
SO he was reading the site i posted and quoted about the 7 suffragans - but he didnt complete the entire sentence that shows this occurred in the 8th Cnetury and not at the time Of Clement.
In the time of Clement, St Ireneaus tells us that St John was still alive... and yet the East went to Rome for direction.
My point is - if an Apostle is alive - why would they travel that far to get the opinion of Rome - when they could talk to an Apostle? Apparently Rome was manifesting Peter's authority even in the time of St John.
I hope we are now connecting - because it seems we went off track somehow.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Are you WA? I made the statement specifically about WA's posts and you answered for her, and now you are her?
You have accused me of this too. It was one of the things I found to be very annoying about our initial exchange of posts. But that is neither here not there - I am tired about arguing about this point. Let's move on.
If someone had authority and it's disregraded then de facto authority is lost. I agree that they still might have de jure authority.
Finally - a statement we can work with. So does de facto trump de jure? (Read: other than on a practical level) And when we see examples of Eastern Churches NOT disregarding or disobeying the Roman Church, does that not then illustrate de facto authority, if not de jure authority? Obviously, de facto authority is easier to observe than de jure (when it is being disregarded). But my original point still stands: disregard for, or disobedience of, authority is not an accurate indicator of its (de jour) nature.
You wanted to have John Chrysostom as following one, of two equally legitimate choices in Antioch.
I did? My position has been that Rome took no formal or official position on who the Patriarch of Antioch was.
I pointed out that he was following one in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the Pope's man.
Well...this is a very complex matter you are being overly simplistic with. The bottom line is that Rome never formally recognized either Bishop as the Patriarch of Antioch regardless of what the "Pope's man" did. Therefore Chrysostom was never in opposition to Rome or the Pope. And there certainly were no "ex-communications" flying around from Rome to either side.
I evidenced this from historians whom you say are wrong - because you're right.
And why you put such great stock in 19th century Protestant scholars and a relatively little-known 20th century liberal modernist Catholic scholar is beyond me. If they are right - produce the documents of ex-communication (or at least contemporary evidence of it). We can play dueling scholars if you want.
One could continue to argue "The Pope was still head of the church" however one can not argue in this circumstance "John Chrysostom obeyed the Pope" because he clearly didn't.
Then show me evidence that he disobeyed the Pope. His ordination does not meet the standard.
And that was my point for raising that issue in the first place. Such an intelligent man as John Chrysostom knowingly followed someone in direct opposition to the Pope.
Except he wasn't in direct opposition to the Pope. The Pope remained neutral.
I used his example as the right context for all his writings that you use regarding the Papacy because you make him at odds with his writings -for you wish him to be championing (in writing) the papacy, with selected quotes, but his life was spent doing otherwise.
Except that his life wasn't spent doing otherwise.
__________________
I Am Catholic
"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." G.K. Chesterton
The context that needs to be understood, when we're discussing I Clement, is very wide:
"Refounded as a Roman colony in the middle of the first century, Corinth had built up a peculiarly intimate connection in trade and culture with the mother city."......
No Bishop was teched by Clement, just the lower Clergy (who rebelled against the Presbyters ). Furthermore, Bishop of Rome sent the letter to colony refounded by Rome.
God helps
Above is Nestoj's post re: Corinth at the time of the writing of I Clement (the epistle to the Corinthians presently under discussion). The second bolded (by me) statement refers to the ecclesial structure of that time (which is reflected in Nestoj's final statement, which I have not bolded).
The regional structure of the Church in the Apostolic era is reflected in Acts, Chapter 20:3 (where representatives of the different regions - the Asian delegates, Thessalonica, etc. - are mentioned). The regional association of Corinth at this time was not east, but Rome (the west).
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the age to come.
Amen.
They are Greek Thekla, I just don't know what else to say.
However - my point is and remains that St John an Apostle was alive during that time, and by all indications - no matter what Rites had existed - St John should have been the choice candidate to direct a problem to.
NO ONE did on this subject - they went to the Pope.
So as evidenced is the presbyters which are of the Priesthood and not just priests - were being disobeyed.
Why didn't AN APOSTLE take care of the problem?
THIS is the issue - the Apostle vs the Pope.
And the Pope did the teaching and instructing.
It would be interesting to note - if ppl would actually see it for what it is.
It is after all history of the Church and it does mean something important.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Linear Mode
