No Creed But Christ - Restoration MovementThe forum for members of the restoration movement including Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches.
I had an interesting, early-morning discussions with a close friend of mine that now attends a Reformed church, while I am CoC. The conversation turned to theology, and the questions of predestination and "once saved, always saved." Arguably, these two go hand-in-hand. It wasn't a subject I had considered much in the past, and now I'm curious about the Church of Christ stance on the subjects. Preferably with verses supporting your arguments. Thanks for your time.
These verses seem to indicate it's possible for a brother or sister to fall back into sin:
James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
(NIV)
2 Timothy 2:11-12
11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;
(NIV)
Then there's this verse which seems to indicate that a truly saved person will not continue to live in sin:
1 John 5:18
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.
(NIV)
I'll leave it to you to make up your mind about that teaching.
As far as predestination - look up 'predestined' in the back of your Bible and examine the Scriptures that use that word (Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5, 11). Every single instance that word is used to describe a GROUP of people (i.e. those who would follow Jesus) - not INDIVIDUALS.
Calvinists teach that individuals are elect or unelect before they're even created. In other words, God creates some individuals to go to hell while He creates others to go to heaven. The Bible doesn't teach this.
It does teach that those who follow Jesus will go to heaven, and those who don't will not.
God foreknew that those - that is, the GROUP of people - who would CHOOSE to follow Jesus would go to heaven. God didn't create us as preprogrammed robots. He created us as creatures of choice that He very much wants to see make the right one - to follow Him.
The GROUP that makes the right choice was predestined before the beginning of time to be with God in the end.
Hope this is helpful,
Wes
__________________ Luke 24:46-47 "He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations ..."
I had an interesting, early-morning discussions with a close friend of mine that now attends a Reformed church, while I am CoC. The conversation turned to theology, and the questions of predestination and "once saved, always saved." Arguably, these two go hand-in-hand. It wasn't a subject I had considered much in the past, and now I'm curious about the Church of Christ stance on the subjects. Preferably with verses supporting your arguments. Thanks for your time.
In Christ,
Joshua
The word "predestined" appears in the following NKJV passages:
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 - Show Context
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Eph 1:5 - Show Context
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
The issue is deciding how God's people are predestined. If considered on an individual basis, as in God programming us so we are either saved or lost and there's absolutely nothing we can do to change the course of events, then God is ultimately responsible for those who are lost. After all, if such is the case, then how can a person be personally responsible for something they have absolutely no control over?
On the other hand, if considered within the realm of individual choice, then each person is ultimately responsible for the particular course of life they choose to follow. If such was true, then we should choose wisely whom we serve by considering the words that Joshua spoke to the Israelites in Joshua 24:15-28. From a N.T. perspective, one has to wonder about the basis for the commands given in Acts 2:38,40. If man has a free will to decide, then each person must decide if they will accept Jesus as the Christ and obey Him. In light of the teaching of 2 Corinthians 5:10 - "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (NKJV), the only way I can understand this passage in light of the other Scriptures is that God has NOT predestined us individually, but has predestined those collectively as a group who have accepted the Lord to be with Him in eternity in heaven, and those who have rejected His Son to be cast away for eternity in hell (gehenna). Therefore, we are responsible for our own actions and have no one to blame but ourselves for disobedience, rebellion, etc. for not doing God's will. However, if personal predestination is true, then the sinner's defense to God is: "You made me this way, therefore, how can I be held accountable?" Consequently, if predestination is true - and it is true that God will be a fair and just judge - how can anyone be condemned in light of passages such as Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23? See the dilemma?
As for the "once saved, always saved" mindset, passages such as Galatians 5:4 reveal the folly of such reasoning. NOTE: in Galatians 1:2, the epistle is written to "brethren." However, these brethren were "turning away" from the gospel of Christ "to a different gospel" per 1:6. That different gospel was created by those attempting to bind certain requirements given to the Jews under the law of Moses with the requirements under the gospel of Christ. As explained in Galatians 5:1-4, circumcision - an O.T. requirement given exclusively to the Jews, is not binding under the gospel of Christ today. Those who command such are obligated to follow the whole law of Moses, which results in the fall from God's grace under the gospel of His Son. Given some thought, how can one expect to enjoy the blessings offered under the gospel of Christ by still clinging to the law of Moses? Answer: One cannot. Therefore, one should be content to follow the gospel of Christ and receive the blessings He promised. Otherwise, those who once followed Christ fall away from His acceptance and blessings.
On a personal note, I moved to Texas 19+ years ago, but am still a Mountaineer by birth and at heart (i.e., I bleed blue and gold, but will still pull for Marshall if they are playing someone other than WVU). Perhaps we are related. After all, you know what they say about WV ... everyone has the same DNA, and the family tree only has one limb, right?
Last edited by - DRA -; 25th July 2009 at 02:03 PM.
DRA, thanks for all of the input. IMOt, i's always easier to learn with someone helping you when you run into some rough spots. You certainly helped me develop my opinion on the matters, and clarified a few things. Maybe my friend will find it fun to see this and come up with a rebuttal.
and it's always great to hear from another Mountaineer. It's certainly true it seems everyone there is related. Or connected in some way. Maybe I'll be hearing from you again sometime. You've got a wealth of knowledge, I can tell.
In Christ,
Joshua
__________________ John 15:13- Greater love has no man than this, that he would lay down his life for his friends.
For what it's worth - the entire book of Hebrews seems to address this issue either directly or indirectly. I find it hard to read the bible at all (OT or New) and get any sense that salvation is necessarily certain - in the sense that once saved it's impossible to reject salvation (i.e. "once saved, always saved"). So many admonitions throughout the bible seem to indicate otherwise. Given the deceitfulness of sin, the fact that we must live out our lives in these bodies until our deaths, and the fact there are so many passages encouraging the Christian to "endure" (persevere, etc.), I find the notion of OSAS entirely problematic and the arguments for OSAS to be entirely untenable.
It's clear we are to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" and to make no provision for the lusts of the flesh, etc. But these very admonitions acknowledge the possibility of doing either - and to our ultimate destruction. In Revelation, we see Christ's admonition to various churches whose behaviors had, for various reasons departed from the Christian norm and clearly found some of them wanting in the sense of eternal security. It seems to me that faith, enduring faith is the key to surviving the world in which we live, faith in His indwelling Spirit, trust in His power to save and help in time of need. But it's clear from the Scriptures that not everyone who once professed the faith did indeed survive this present world, having succumbed to the temptations of the devil and the lusts of the world to fall away from the faith.
__________________
"I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isa 44:22
Just a brief thought: Although the OSAS doctrine is false, so is the "Once saved, but barely saved." Read 1 John 5:11-13. We can be as confident of our salvation as we are that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Check out the scripture you quoted, "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..." The very next verse says, "For it is GOD who works in you both to will and do according to His good pleasure." Certainly we need to be obedient and submissive to God and all of His teachings, but we do that because we are saved, NOT to be saved.
__________________ "Jesus was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification." Romans 4:25
As a kid and CofCer, I believed that there was a "saved line"...one sin pushed you below the line, and you had to pray for forgiveness to get back above it. I remember nights when, as any normal teenage boy might do, I had some impure thoughts. I would feel guilty knowing I was sinning and pray for forgiveness. Laying back in bed, I would again feel my mind wander towards impurity, and pray again. I felt my VERY SALVATION was truly dependent on at which point I finally fell asleep - before or after the prayer.
I do not buy the doctrine of OSAS or predestination, but I do feel that what I was taught about losing one's salvation is wrong. God's grace is not so easily sacrificed, unless done so by turning one's back on God. (Of course, the OSAS people I talk to this about claim that such a person was never saved to begin with. Semantics.)
... I do not buy the doctrine of OSAS or predestination, but I do feel that what I was taught about losing one's salvation is wrong. God's grace is not so easily sacrificed, unless done so by turning one's back on God. (Of course, the OSAS people I talk to this about claim that such a person was never saved to begin with. Semantics.)
Acts 5:1-11.
As I understand the events, I don't believe God is impressed/pleased with Ananias and Sapphira. Rather, it seems He rejected them much like Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10:1-2. However, I don't see any evidence that would lead me to conclude they "turned their back on God." Rather, they lied. They said they gave all when they only gave partof the sale of the possession. Consequently, I am led to believe that one can indeed fall from God's grace without completely turning his/her back on God.
Last edited by - DRA -; 9th July 2009 at 06:04 PM.
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