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  #1  
Old 12th June 2009, 08:57 PM
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Homosexuality and Adulthood

I posted this in the 'Prop 8' thread (though I've edited it here), but I feel like it's important enough to have a discussion about. From what I've seen so far in this forum, I fully expect what I'm about to post to eventually be reduced to the same old arguments regarding homosexuality, but perhaps some of you can focus specifically on my ideas for at least a moment or two.

Regarding homosexual marriage rights:

I say we do what I try to do for everyone: Give them the option of making their own choice and then let God sort it out. This way, if homosexuality is wrong, we're no longer standing in the way as offensive objects to be blamed and God can begin to speak directly to them about it. If homosexuality isn't wrong, no harm and no foul. Let me explain...

As it is, I don't see how legalizing homosexual marriage could be near as destructive as all the suffering being caused by the argument itself. Of course, I'm a proponent of self-government and believe everyone should learn to take responsibility for themselves in a manner which puts nothing between them and God, even though they may not believe in God at all. I do not place as much import as most on 'worldy' societal government.

As we should all know, there comes a point when parents need to let their children go and figure things out for themselves, and we who refuse to allow gay marriage remind me of the simple family dynamic of parents and young children. We say to them, "you can't go here" and "you can't do that", but heterosexuals are not the ordained guardians of homosexuals in any way, shape, or form, and homosexuals are not going to "thank us later" if we never give them the opportunity to pursue their beliefs; I say this because unless we respect them enough to let them go out as adult men and women into the hands of God, how could their only conclusion ever be but that the iron fist of anti-gays oppresses them and so they fight back? It's not possible to grow internally if we're always too busy being offended and defending ourselves--no one can feel guilt when they're blaming everyone else.

At the same time, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that many people (though certainly not all) claim homosexuality simply because of the conflict: We all need something to stand for, and we'll never know the full potential of homosexuals, or what God wishes to do with them, until we stop trying to beat them back.

Just an idea, from a deeper spiritual and individual perspective.
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  #2  
Old 12th June 2009, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Poverello78 View Post
I posted this in the 'Prop 8' thread (though I've edited it here), but I feel like it's important enough to have a discussion about. From what I've seen so far in this forum, I fully expect what I'm about to post to eventually be reduced to the same old arguments regarding homosexuality, but perhaps some of you can focus specifically on my ideas for at least a moment or two.

Regarding homosexual marriage rights:

I say we do what I try to do for everyone: Give them the option of making their own choice and then let God sort it out. This way, if homosexuality is wrong, we're no longer standing in the way as offensive objects to be blamed and God can begin to speak directly to them about it. If homosexuality isn't wrong, no harm and no foul. Let me explain...

As it is, I don't see how legalizing homosexual marriage could be near as destructive as all the suffering being caused by the argument itself. Of course, I'm a proponent of self-government and believe everyone should learn to take responsibility for themselves in a manner which puts nothing between them and God, even though they may not believe in God at all. I do not place as much import as most on 'worldy' societal government.

As we should all know, there comes a point when parents need to let their children go and figure things out for themselves, and we who refuse to allow gay marriage remind me of the simple family dynamic of parents and young children. We say to them, "you can't go here" and "you can't do that", but heterosexuals are not the ordained guardians of homosexuals in any way, shape, or form, and homosexuals are not going to "thank us later" if we never give them the opportunity to pursue their beliefs; I say this because unless we respect them enough to let them go out as adult men and women into the hands of God, how could their only conclusion ever be but that the iron fist of anti-gays oppresses them and so they fight back? It's not possible to grow internally if we're always too busy being offended and defending ourselves--no one can feel guilt when they're blaming everyone else.

At the same time, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that many people (though certainly not all) claim homosexuality simply because of the conflict: We all need something to stand for, and we'll never know the full potential of homosexuals, or what God wishes to do with them, until we stop trying to beat them back.

Just an idea, from a deeper spiritual and individual perspective.
Why do you want to support their desire to sin? How is that good for that person? Jesus wouldn't want them to "just try it out," so why would you?
  #3  
Old 12th June 2009, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by peace4ever View Post
Why do you want to support their desire to sin? How is that good for that person? Jesus wouldn't want them to "just try it out," so why would you?
There's a difference between wanting sin and allowing sin. God Himself allows sin, and for the same reason I'm describing, though in a broader sense. I'm simply trying to be practical.
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Old 12th June 2009, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Poverello78 View Post
There's a difference between wanting sin and allowing sin. God Himself allows sin, and for the same reason I'm describing, though in a broader sense. I'm simply trying to be practical.
Don't worry, the secular world will definitely allow sin because it's ruled by Satan. So there isn't much we can do about the secular world anyway. We're simply called to tell the truth because we are the light of the world. Without true Christians, no one would ever hear the truth. So we can't stop telling it.
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Old 12th June 2009, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by peace4ever View Post
Don't worry, the secular world will definitely allow sin because it's ruled by Satan. So there isn't much we can do about the secular world anyway. We're simply called to tell the truth because we are the light of the world. Without true Christians, no one would ever hear the truth. So we can't stop telling it.
I agree 100% about telling the Truth, but attempting to manipulate circumstances in order to control those who don't cause any sort of "clear and present danger". Telling one thing, forcing is another.

The Crusaders would force baptisms on people--was that an accurate representation of Christ? Of course not. As another example, C.S. Lewis talks about how forcing a man who doesn't want to be rehabilitated into rehabilitation should be considered a worse punishment than life in prison or even capital punishment (it's part of his argument in favor of capital punishment, but the point applies).

I'm not trying to say here that everyone should agree with my point-of-view but, of course, I believe there's a lot to be said for it.
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Old 12th June 2009, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Poverello78 View Post
I agree 100% about telling the Truth, but attempting to manipulate circumstances in order to control those who don't cause any sort of "clear and present danger". Telling one thing, forcing is another.

The Crusaders would force baptisms on people--was that an accurate representation of Christ? Of course not. As another example, C.S. Lewis talks about how forcing a man who doesn't want to be rehabilitated into rehabilitation should be considered a worse punishment than life in prison or even capital punishment (it's part of his argument in favor of capital punishment, but the point applies).

I'm not trying to say here that everyone should agree with my point-of-view but, of course, I believe there's a lot to be said for it.
I absolutely agree that the Crusaders were out of line just as anyone who breaks any of God's laws to bring people to Christ or "in the name of Christ". That's a contradiction right there.

But we are not to support the actions of the secular world because they're going to sin anyway. So we must tell them the truth as we are led to do it, according to scripture.
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Old 12th June 2009, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by peace4ever View Post
I absolutely agree that the Crusaders were out of line just as anyone who breaks any of God's laws to bring people to Christ or "in the name of Christ". That's a contradiction right there.

But we are not to support the actions of the secular world because they're going to sin anyway. So we must tell them the truth as we are led to do it, according to scripture.
I agree with the not supporting sinful behavior, but what happens when they dont want to listen to the truth, as they obviously dont because they live with the sin happily and feel it is a good thing.

Personally I prefer to let people make their choice and live with the consequences. I dont have to like what they do though and anyone who says I should accept it can go be with them and leave me alone :O.

Sorry, got a bit carried away there hehe. I just think its a bad idea to waste your breath on someone who doesnt want to listen. the good thing though is to tell them once and then move on, why bother trying to convince them, they heard the truth when you said it the first time, what more can be said?
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Old 12th June 2009, 10:45 PM
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I agree with the not supporting sinful behavior, but what happens when they dont want to listen to the truth, as they obviously dont because they live with the sin happily and feel it is a good thing.
Then you have to know when you are throwing pearls to swine. In those cases I apply Rev. 22:11, "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

But we can take heart that God will not let us continue throwing pearls to swine because it's He who keeps us strong and blameless. One example of this is in Acts 16:7 when the Spirit of Jesus wouldn't let Paul enter Bithynia.

So I thank God that Jesus and all of his angels are protecting me because I also have a sinful nature that co-exists with the indwelling Holy Spirit and I certainly can't trust my sinful nature! But Jesus always intercedes for us to protect us from the evil one as 1 John 5 :18 explains.
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Old 12th June 2009, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ERice2nd View Post
I just think its a bad idea to waste your breath on someone who doesnt want to listen. the good thing though is to tell them once and then move on, why bother trying to convince them, they heard the truth when you said it the first time, what more can be said?
This is correct in my opinion as well. Strange as it may sound, I find that people who act this way are actually disrespecting the God-given right of choice.
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Old 12th June 2009, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Poverello78 View Post
This is correct in my opinion as well. Strange as it may sound, I find that people who act this way are actually disrespecting the God-given right of choice.
Show me this "God-given right of choice" in the Scriptures. In truth, it doesn't exist! Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me what people will permit in the name of human libertarianism.

Homosexuality is simply one stop along the path to total societal subversion [Ro. 1:18-32]. Why not put an end to it now before things get even worse.
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