| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |  | | 
13th June 2009, 12:49 PM
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Reps: 12,567,898,174,147,644 (power: 12,567,898,174,166) | | Originally Posted by ToxicReboMan Well, you choose not to trust Scripture when it clearly says that the earth was created out of water and by water. There is so much water in space. Remember water was separated to create the expansion of the universe. Is space unlimited? Who knows (hard to fathom), but according to the Bible at the "edges" of the universe you will hit water. How do scientist know that the universe isn't an expansion amidst great waters?
This is a good example of a person who thinks he is reading Genesis literally when, in fact, he is interpreting it allegorically.
Was water separated to create the expansion of the universe?
The question would not even occur to anyone prior to the discoveries of Hubble on the red-shifting of the galaxies. Nor is that idea evident at all from any reading of the scriptural text standing alone.
The literal reading of Genesis 1:6-8 is that God placed a physical barrier (the firmament) between waters above it and waters below it.
In the paragraph above, the physical barrier becomes an allegory for space (in which "above" and "below" become irrelevant) and a static separation between the above and below becomes an allegory for the expansion of the universe.
In a following sentence what the bible consistently represents as the edges (or ends) of the earth become an allegory for the edges (sic) of the universe.
What is psychologically interesting about the concordist view of scripture is that this whole allegorical package is then presented as the "literal" meaning of the text when it is anything but. On that passage it is clear that no human can move earth. If earth is to be moved by someone, it would be done by God alone who established it. That is the message of that little text.
The key word being "if". But since the one who established it and made it firm and secure is God, it makes no sense to assume that God is constantly causing it to move. He could, if he wished to, but one does not ordinarily take steps to secure the immobility of an object that one wishes to move.
So is the text true? Or does the earth move?
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13th June 2009, 01:00 PM
|  | Deut 6:4 28  | | Join Date: 19th May 2005 Location: McAllen, Texas
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by gluadys First, I think what you mean by "literal" is really "historical" i.e. actual events which have particular space-time coordinates in our universe.
(One should separate the meaning of "literal" from "historical". There is a literal meaning to everything said or written, but not necessarily a reference to history. Most prose fiction, for example, can be read literally i.e. the common sense meaning of the text is the intended meaning--there is no intention that the story be an allegory. But there is no intention that it be history either.)
But one cannot divide scripture up in such a way that you can say: everything up to here is not history and everything after here is history. Non-history intrudes into history in the bible from Genesis to Revelation---all the way through.
And there are huge gray areas where it could be (at least in part) history, probably is (in part) history, but not verified by evidence as history.
Consider even such an important figure as Moses, for example. It is pretty hard to imagine the history of Israel without him. And I, for one, don't doubt that Moses existed. But we have no evidence apart from the biblical stories that there ever was such a person, and a fair bit of evidence that suggests the stories are not entirely historical. Probably we are on firm ground in holding that Moses was probably an actual historical person, but also on firm ground holding that most of the stories about him are in part or in whole legendary.
You are right, I agree, that 'historical' would be the more appropriate word for me to use instead of 'literal.'
As far as Moses....Although I happen to disagree with some of your statements, I will respect your views on this. If my faith in the historical accuracy of the Bible turns out to be unfounded, then I will shake your hand and admit you were wiser than I. Of course I believe it won't be until the King of kings returns that everything will be set straight. | 
13th June 2009, 01:24 PM
|  | Deut 6:4 28  | | Join Date: 19th May 2005 Location: McAllen, Texas
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by Mallon Maybe there's no direct answer to your question. As gluadys and I have pointed out, you mischaracterized evolutionary creationism from the outset, so it's difficult to address your question in any meaningful way. It's like asking, "Have you stopped beating you wife?" Regardless, I took a good crack at it.
Now how about you? Where do you draw the line between interpreting Genesis literally and allegorically? Do you subscribe to a literal firmament with literal floodgates? Was Day 7 a literal day? Was the snake a literal snake? Did God literally create birds from water as it says in Genesis 1, or did He literally create them from dirt as it says in Genesis 2? Perhaps you could help shed some light on these issues and set us all straight. 
Surely there are answers to my simple question. One example would be: "I don't know." TEs were not even mentioned in the questions. Quit getting all hung up over how I did or didn't characterize TEs. By doing so, you're ignoring the questions themselves.
Literal firmament. Literal day. Literal serpent. Earth created from water. Birds then created from the earth (this doesn't conflict with Gen 1 at all). | 
13th June 2009, 01:36 PM
|  | Deut 6:4 28  | | Join Date: 19th May 2005 Location: McAllen, Texas
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by gluadys So is the text true? Or does the earth move?
Text is true. Earth cannot be moved out of it's establishment. | 
13th June 2009, 01:54 PM
|  | Chewbacha
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13th June 2009, 01:59 PM
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | Originally Posted by ToxicReboMan Surely there are answers to my simple question. One example would be: "I don't know." TEs were not even mentioned in the questions. Quit getting all hung up over how I did or didn't characterize TEs. By doing so, you're ignoring the questions themselves.
I'm sorry. I just thought you might first like to know what evolutionary creationists actually believe, as opposed to what you think we believe. Learning not to equate literalism with historicism is a lesson you'll first have to learn before you can understand where evolutionary creationists are coming from.
As gluadys just pointed out, a literal firmament is "a physical barrier between waters above it and waters below it." Job 37:18 describes it as " hard as a mirror of cast bronze" (even the literal meaning of the word "firmament" refers to hammered-out metal). You're certain that you believe the firmament is literally as the Bible describes it?
So you believe God is still at work creating? If so, then I'm with you.
So you don't think the serpent was Satan? Earth created from water. Birds then created from the earth (this doesn't conflict with Gen 1 at all).
That's not a literal interpretation at all!
__________________ "There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood | 
13th June 2009, 02:03 PM
|  | Deut 6:4 28  | | Join Date: 19th May 2005 Location: McAllen, Texas
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by Dark_Lite So how do you account for the Earth moving through space?
I'm tired of answering first. You answer my question first then I will answer you. | 
13th June 2009, 02:04 PM
|  | Deut 6:4 28  | | Join Date: 19th May 2005 Location: McAllen, Texas
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Reps: 70,027,930,524,366,400 (power: 70,027,930,524,374) | | Originally Posted by Mallon I'm sorry. I just thought you might first like to know what evolutionary creationists actually believe, as opposed to what you think we believe. Learning not to equate literalism with historicism is a lesson you'll first have to learn before you can understand where evolutionary creationists are coming from.
As gluadys just pointed out, a literal firmament is "a physical barrier between waters above it and waters below it." Job 37:18 describes it as " hard as a mirror of cast bronze" (even the literal meaning of the word "firmament" refers to hammered-out metal). You're certain that you believe the firmament is literally as the Bible describes it?
So you believe God is still at work creating? If so, then I'm with you.
So you don't think the serpent was Satan?
That's not a literal interpretation at all!
Same thing I said to DarkLite goes to you as well. It's your turn. | 
13th June 2009, 02:13 PM
|  | Chewbacha
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Reps: 1,238,051,283,267,514,112 (power: 1,238,051,283,267,541) | | | There is no specific "method" for determining which parts are literal and which parts are non-literal. But I'm sure you knew that. The determinacy comes through careful studying of both the Bible and the creation described in the Bible. All of the evidence points towards an old Earth and non-literal creation account. God is not the author of lies. Therefore we have two possibilities:
1. The creation account is not literal. Notice I did not say not wrong.
2. The findings of modern science are wrong.
2 would be an acceptable possibility if all of science did not build upon itself and provide endless evidence for an old Earth and an old universe. Therefore, we are left with 1.
My guess is that someone (not necessarily you, but someone) will interpret this answer as "putting the authority of men higher than God." My answer to that is: why would God create something where all the evidence then points to a different reading than a literal genesis. We are back to the whole thing about God not lying.
So, how do you account for the Earth moving in space and all astronomical and meteorological observations showing that we are A) not surrounded by a giant bubble/cloud of water and B) are not the center of the universe?
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13th June 2009, 02:16 PM
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Reps: 37,247,279,516,221,256 (power: 37,247,279,516,236) | | Originally Posted by ToxicReboMan TEs argue that not all of Genesis is meant to be taken literally. How does one know which parts of Genesis to take literally and which parts to take figuratively? Where in Genesis does the metaphorical passages end and the literal passages begin?
It doesn't end, the Bible is regarded by Theistic Evolutionists as mythology. I can't say for sure how they feel about the New Testament because they rarely talk about it. I think you are simply asking a question they would rather not answer, 'do you take the Gospel literally'? Don't take my word for it, ask them about the healing of leapers or the parting of the Red Sea. The best you can expect is a simple, 'yea, I believe it so what'. At least that's what I mostly get.
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