Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
There are not only no 'excellent' reasons for not believing what Jesus and his apostles said about the historicity of Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Noah, there are none. You are using pure human reasoning without a scriptural basis. The Lord is not pleased with this.
Please explain, with examples, exactly WHY they MUST have been 100% historical simply because He mentioned them. Please, in your explanation, also include EXACTLY WHY it is IMPOSSIBLE that He could have been referring to an allegorical story as one of the things He mentioned. Prove it beyond a doubt. Please.
No, it’s not plain to see.
Not only so but Paul made it clear that it was by Adam's transgression that both sin and death entered into the world.
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Romans 5:12.
So we have the reason for both the fall of man and the entrance of death into the world...which, if theistic evolution were true we are forced into utter darkness and ignorance as to when, how, and who was involved in the matter of sin, death, and the fall is concerned. If Adam was not a real person who actually sinned and therefore brought the fall of man as it now effects the whole human race then neither you nor any of your unbelieving comrades have got a clue as to who committed the first sin, what actually happened, nor how it was transmitted to the rest of the human race.
Were Adam's mother and father apes? Did they sin?
Because Paul CLEARLY states that the one man is Adam and that if Adam wasn’t literally created how Genesis says he was then God is wrong.
Oh wait. He doesn’t.
Adam does not have to be a real person created 6000 years ago from dust to have been the first human God revealed Himself to. And Adam and Eve still committed the first sin even if it wasn’t eating from a forbidden tree in a garden 6000 years ago.
Adam’s parents were apes just as much as Adam was an ape just as much as you and I are apes. And if God did not reveal Himself to them, did not give them a soul, then no, they did not sin.
No, there aren't. You have believed lies that the earth is million and/or billions of yrs old. You have been listening to the wrong people.
And your proof for this is? Your evidence for this is? Or do you have nothing but blind assertions, hand-waving, and circular reasoning to do it with?
Reality is what God says in His word: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
And that is ALL Jesus said. Jesus did not say “But from the beginning of creation, which was about 4000 years ago, God made them male and female, but the female from the male, and the male first, and he called Adam, and she called Eve, in a Garden named Eden.” If the first humans came ~120,000 years ago, and they were male and female, Jesus’ statement is STILL accurate.
I see your personal attack. Do the moderators allow this?
Since you have no scripture to support an evolutionary interpretation and you can't quote any it is of no surprise that you stoop to such tactics.
I see no personal attack here. Please elaborate upon what it is.
Furthermore, this entire time you have been insinuating and blatantly stating that we TEs do not even believe the Word of God, directly calling our Christianity into question, which is in fact EXPLICITLY against the rules of this board. Furthermore, saying we can’t quote any scripture is blatantly ignoring several posts made in this very thread.
Metherion
__________________ Oh, for the love of Pete!
PETE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!!!!
And, because I won't write anything I'm not willing to attach my name to...
Please explain, with examples, exactly WHY they MUST have been 100% historical simply because He mentioned them. Please, in your explanation, also include EXACTLY WHY it is IMPOSSIBLE that He could have been referring to an allegorical story as one of the things He mentioned. Prove it beyond a doubt. Please.
No, it’s not plain to see.
...snip...
It would be nice wouldn't it.
__________________ Funny thing about tracking.
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Isaiah 8:12-13 (NIV) "Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread."
I see we're starting to cover the same ground peace4ever and I covered a few weeks ago.
I wasn't here a few weeks ago.
"a concordist reading of the Scriptures". You mean a faithful reading of the text, for that is what it is.
How does the Bible describe the shape of the Earth?
Job 38:13-14
that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
What it really says is: "That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment." KJV.
That is such a weak, pitiful argument. I told you that I have pictures of two different kinds of seals use by the ancients that are spherical but you apparently don't see what I am driving at.
Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people
Yes. Any object that is spherical can appear circular depending on perspective and/or lighting depending on the perspective of the viewer.
Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
How is this different than, "And every eye shall see Him" concerning the 2nd coming of Jesus? It will be a supernatural revelation by God Himself. God has no problems doing such things. TE's have problems believing that He can.
Daniel 4:10-11
These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
You take a dream and attempt to make an argument against a literal rendering of scripture? That isn't honest.
Psalm 19:4
Their voice [a] goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.
And? The witness of God's creation is plain for all to see and it does literally go to the ends of the earth...that is, the whole world. Nature speaks of the glory of God.
Psalm 104:2
He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent
He speaks here of the space inside the 'tent'...a standing tent, friend. Good grief, what am I dealing with here?
The Bible describes the Earth as flat.
How does the Bible describe the movement of the Earth?
1 Samuel 2:8
He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. “For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world.”
Tell me what those 'foundations' look like in the first place and then I will tell you if you have an argument. Hint: You don't.
1 Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
I explained this distinctly earlier but you ignored me? Must I repeat myself?
Job 38:4
“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand.”
Same as above. You have no argument because you don't know what those foundations are to begin with.
Psalm 96:10
Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge
Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
And it isn't moved...from the orbit that he set it in at the creation. I know of a man out west who built a rotating house. It never 'moves' from its location but it turns about on its axis whenever he has the power switch on. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
Psalm 93:1
…The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
The Bible describes the Earth as immovable.
And it is 'immovable'. Try to move it out of its orbit. Suggest something man can do to change it's position.
What is the Earth’s foundation?
Job 9:6
“He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.”
Those pillars are real but we don't know what they are or just how they work.
Psalm 75:3
“When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.”
The Bible describes the Earth as resting on a foundation of pillars.
It does. But we cannot see them nor how they function.
How does the Bible describe the heavens?
Genesis 7:11
“In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month...and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.”
I have a picture of the 'floodgates' also. It is a picture of a cloudburst. Notice my word 'cloudburst'. A simple expression for precipitation. God uses the same kind of coloquial expressions in scripture but you don't grasp it.
Genesis 8:2
‘Look, even if the LORD should open the floodgates of the heavens, could this happen?’ ‘You will see it with your own eyes," answered Elisha, "but you will not eat any of it!’”
Same as above.
Job 37:18
“can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?”
"Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?" KJV.
Answer this: (1) why are all of our NASA satellites slowing down in deep space. Pioneers 10 & 11, Olympia, etc. are all slowing down even though they are all moving in different directions from the solar system. (2) Why do comets, which come from outside of our solar system, contain ice?
Something is out there. My theory: the water canopy as mentioned in Genesis, the 'waters above the firmament'.
Ezekiel 1:22
“Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome.”
The Bible describes the heavens as a solid, crystalline dome above the Earth, with windows to allow the heavenly waters through.
Hmm, sounds exactly what I described above. It's real.
How does the Bible describe the movement of the Sun?
Joshua 10:12
On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: “O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
And it happened. The power of God Almighty who created the heavens and the earth with the breath of His mouth.
Psalm 19:4-6
Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun, which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.
Exactly. From man's viewpoint on earth this is what the sun does each day. It has to do with ones perspective.
Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.
See above.
Habakkuk 3:11
Sun and moon stood still in the heavens at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear.
Psalm 50:1
The Mighty One, God, the LORD, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets.
Perspective. If you rule that out you are not being honest.
The Bible describes the Sun as moving about the immobile Earth in a circuit. It was said to “stand still” by Joshua’s command.
How does the Bible describe the stars?
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
You are using a heretical, corrupt translation of the Bible. This is what it really says:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The text speaks of Satan/Lucifer and his fall from heaven after his rebellion against God, not the stars. It is plainly speaking of the one who sinned and was punished by being thrown out of heaven. Think about it...the condemnation in vs 15 cannot refer to the stars. Why would God send stars to hell? What reason would He have? None. But He has reason to send Satan/Lucifer to hell. Great reason.
Why don't you try using a translation of scripture that is faithful to the Greek and Hebrew from which it came? But even with your translation your interpretation falls for the passage was not speaking of stars but a personality: that personality is Lucifer.
Daniel 8:10
It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.
This we are not certain about. They are either meteors or else it refers to fallen angels.
Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Perhaps a meteor shower. It remains to be seen.
Mark 13:25
the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Revelation 6:13
and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
Revelation 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth…
See above.
The Bible describes the stars as pinpricks of light set in the firmament, and as capable of falling to Earth.
If you can get a spherical-earthed, heliocentric cosmology out of that while maintaining a consistent concordist hermeneutic, then I hope you will show us all how, because even the fathers of the Reformation agreed in large part with this interpretation I've just presented. If not, I only hope you'll rethink your insistence that in order to be faithful to Scripture, one must assume your brand concordism.
Again, 'concordism' is just another way of saying, "Being faithful to the plain text of scripture.'
(By the way, here's a picture of an ancient clay seal -- called a bulla -- that dates back to biblical times:
It's flat.)
"..from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation." Luke 11:51
Is Jesus referring to a non-historical person and a historical person in the same breath?
"Please explain, with examples, exactly WHY they MUST have been 100% historical simply because He mentioned them. Please, in your explanation, also include EXACTLY WHY it is IMPOSSIBLE that He could have been referring to an allegorical story as one of the things He mentioned. Prove it beyond a doubt. Please."
It is already proved beyond a doubt, by the Lord Himself. You just don't believe Him. Neither do you believe His followers who affirmed the events mentioned in Genesis in multiple places in the New Testament.
But you are asking the wrong question to begin with. The real question is, "Is there any evidence that those characters and events mentioned in Genesis were anything less than historical/literal?" Give scripture and you can convince me. But the truth is that you cannot do so because there is none. Each of the writers of scripture treated the characters and events mentioned in Genesis EXACTLY the same way they treated individuals like Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, and Jonah. There are no hints that those events and/or individuals were less than real and literal.
Not only so but you aren't thinking clearly: Why would Jesus compare literal events such as the blood of Zecharias with the blood of Abel and also the destruction of the flood of Noah with the destruction of the world at the second coming in the very same context if those events and characters mentioned in Genesis were nothing more than myths to begin with?
Read these verses and then tell us which characters were not real, literal/historical characters:
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
(KJV)
How could anyone of any theology be justified in arbitrarily declaring that Noah or Job were not real characters but Daniel was? Or how could anyone rightfully declare that Noah was a mythical character yet Job and Daniel were real?
The TE position creates so many problems for its adherents and it forces them to a position of unbelief.
Last edited by Calypsis4; 24th June 2009 at 08:53 PM.
Reason: correction
I see your personal attack. Do the moderators allow this?
Since you have no scripture to support an evolutionary interpretation and you can't quote any it is of no surprise that you stoop to such tactics.
Excuse me? There was nothing personally about you in that entire statement. There is a standard tactic where one feigns being offended in order to try and get their target disciplined, ostensibly to "win the internet argument". It's a dishonest and immature tactic, and I hope you're not using it.
Those who have a desire to learn and understand typically answer challenges with something like "tell me why you think that" rather than "No, there aren't.". It's this type of thinking, of sticking to what you believe and never challenging it, that leads people to hold onto beliefs long after they are no longer feasible. It is a sad constant of history.
"..from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation." Luke 11:51
Is Jesus referring to a non-historical person and a historical person in the same breath?
"Adam does not have to be a real person created 6000 years ago from dust to have been the first human God revealed Himself to. And Adam and Eve still committed the first sin even if it wasn’t eating from a forbidden tree in a garden 6000 years ago.
You are saying that the chronology of Moses in Genesis 5 is wrong and that the dates are in error. Why would the Holy Spirit list such errors and permit them to be believed by millions of people knowing that they would believe lies? If Moses was wrong then was Luke also wrong in Jesus geneology? Of course not. It is your position that is in error and not that of the Holy Spirit.
And what about the promise of Psalm 12:6-7, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."
Those words are empty if the Bible is in error as you intimate.
Adam’s parents were apes just as much as Adam was an ape just as much as you and I are apes. And if God did not reveal Himself to them, did not give them a soul, then no, they did not sin.
Scripture please? Should we toss out the fact that God said He would 'make man in his own image'? And since Jesus Christ was the 'express image of his person' then we know how God appears to men and women who go to heaven. Being infinitely everywhere (omnipresent) does not preclude God appearing with the familiar visage of a body with eyes, nose, mouth, ears, arms, hands, etc. to those who fall down before Him in worship. Rev. 4 & 5.
"No, there aren't. You have believed lies that the earth is million and/or billions of yrs old. You have been listening to the wrong people."
And your proof for this is? Your evidence for this is? Or do you have nothing but blind assertions, hand-waving, and circular reasoning to do it with?
The scriptures should be sufficient for anyone who has faith that it is truly God's Word. But scientifically you can find 14 major reasons for a young earth listed by Dr. Russell Humphrey's at the ICR website. I cannot give the web address for I have not the required 50 posts yet.
"Reality is what God says in His word: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.'"
And that is ALL Jesus said.
No, that is not all Jesus said: He said that his followers on the road to Emmaus were 'fools' for not believing all that Moses and the prophets had written. Matt. 24:25-27. He spoke of Adam, Eve, Abel, and Noah in the same sense that he spoke of David, Solomon, and Jonah. There is no difference in is language concerning those characters and the events that surrounded them Any other position is dishonest.
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