Father,
I thank you that you grant to rahymin wisdom and direction concerning the promises of your word, may your Word be her guide, and only your Word. in Jesus Name amen
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The same applies here? We couldn't have spent more time in the Word, fasting, praying, prayer vigils, on and on. How would you explain this?
You have just answered the question quite clearly.
I hold healing crusades across the United Kingdom and in other nations as well. I have seen many, many people healed of many, many conditions. Our next crusade is in Ilford (east London, UK) in August, and you are more than welcome to attend.
Often people come to me and say something like: "I have prayed, I have fasted, I have spoken the Word, I have had vigils, etc, etc. why am I not healed?"
And I tell someone who says that the reason why they are not healed is obvious. They are entirely focused on their effort and their works. They use the word "I" and "we" a lot.
Healing is not in response to how much we pray, how much time we spend in the Word (Only in the sense that time in the Word builds faith), how much time we spend fasting, or what posters we have on the wall.
It is in response to our faith: our belief that Jesus Christ paid the complete price for our healing as expressed through our confession and our actions.
I don't go into a pulpit and tell people: if you pray enough, fast enough and fight enough God will notice, take pity and heal you. I tell people the truth: Jesus Christ has ALREADY paid the complete price for your healing, and all you have to do is believe it and receive it.
Why did this boy die: because the parents didn't believe it and receive it. Should they take the blame? No - they are free from condemnation in Christ. Should we lie to them and tell them God wants another flower in his flower garden, or should we tell them the truth and make sure they don't lose another child?
Blessings,
Ben
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
Why did this boy die: because the parents didn't believe it and receive it. Should they take the blame? No - they are free from condemnation in Christ. Should we lie to them and tell them God wants another flower in his flower garden, or should we tell them the truth and make sure they don't lose another child?
Blessings,
Ben
You know Ben? As a loving parent, I can't imagine we could say anything that would not make them feel condemnation and guilt. It is this part that I can't reconcile with Jesus' teachings on love.
The other thing that bothers me is how most of the apostles lives ended. They were killed. Why didn't they rely on physical healing, if physical healing is the assured end to all physical infirmity?
Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailment instead of telling him to believe for a complete healing?
Yes, I believe some people are healed. And for years our pastor taught a similar teaching you are teaching here. But when he was stricken with cancer, and after his initial healing it returned, he changed. I think it had something to do with the little boy's death too. He came to believe that physical healing, miracles, are God's way of planting faith among new believers. But as you mature, he said, God asks us to give thanks for everything that comes our way, because death is not something we always want to avoid.
But, for the parents, I will always stand firm that this particular doctrine ended up leaving them in despair. And I can not align with such. I would rather embrace death than risk being a part of hurting a family the way that family was hurt.
__________________ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
You know Ben? As a loving parent, I can't imagine we could say anything that would not make them feel condemnation and guilt. It is this part that I can't reconcile with Jesus' teachings on love.
I am also a loving parent, having 4 children, and I don't find this difficult at all. The truth is what sets us free, not falsehoods. I would rather know my child died because I failed to receive healing than be deceived into thinking that there was something wrong with the transmission. Because then I would blame God, rather than take it on the chin and move on with life.
I am not clear on why you cannot reconcile this with Jesus' teaching on love. When the disciples came ot Jesus (in Matthew 17) and asked why they could not heal a young boy who was epiletic, Jesus didn't tell them "I love you all loads and these things just happen", he said "because of your unbelief".
The other thing that bothers me is how most of the apostles lives ended. They were killed. Why didn't they rely on physical healing, if physical healing is the assured end to all physical infirmity?
This is a simple question with a simple answer. None of the apostles died of cancer - they were killed by other people. We are redeemed from sickness, we are not redeemed from persecution. We cannot apply the Scriptures that pertain to one topic to the other!
Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach ailment instead of telling him to believe for a complete healing?
Timothy knew to believe for a complete healing and was presumably standing in faith. Paul did tell him to have a spirit of power, love and sound mind, and that he should stand and so on, but I guess this piece of personal advice was just to make it easier on him.
If someone is young in faith, like Timothy was, I would have no problems saying while you are standing in faith against the headache, take a panadol. I wouldn't personally take one, I would rather just stand on the Word and receive my healing. Not that I have had headaches for years and years, I honestly cannot remember the last time I had one.
Yes, I believe some people are healed. And for years our pastor taught a similar teaching you are teaching here. But when he was stricken with cancer, and after his initial healing it returned, he changed. I think it had something to do with the little boy's death too. He came to believe that physical healing, miracles, are God's way of planting faith among new believers. But as you mature, he said, God asks us to give thanks for everything that comes our way, because death is not something we always want to avoid.
I wouldn't call that maturity, I would call that losing your first love and becoming luke warm. I can't stand how a lack of faith and lukewarm stands on the Word of God are marketed to people as mature Christianity.
The Bible says resist the devil, not thank God for the works of the devil. Anything that steals, kills and destroys you is from the devil (John 10.10) and you should not accept it.
Gloria Copeland defines heresy as any doctrine that calls you to lay down at the feet of the devil.
But, for the parents, I will always stand firm that this particular doctrine ended up leaving them in despair. And I can not align with such. I would rather embrace death than risk being a part of hurting a family the way that family was hurt.
You would rather leave them vulnerable to whatever attack the devil throws at them in the future.
I disagree with you that the doctrine of divine healing as revealed by Scripture is a pastorally difficult doctrine to present to people. However, even if your conclusion is correct you cannot use a doctrines consequences to determine truth.
If the parents had a 19 year old child die in a car crash who was a practising satanist, not a Christian, never been born again, died cursing and rejecting Jesus, would you tell them the truth about salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, or would you tell them something more palatable to help them through their despair?
Blessings,
Ben
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
I am also a loving parent, having 4 children, and I don't find this difficult at all. The truth is what sets us free, not falsehoods. I would rather know my child died because I failed to receive healing than be deceived into thinking that there was something wrong with the transmission. Because then I would blame God, rather than take it on the chin and move on with life.
Well, I would rather blame my own lack of faith. But, I wouldn't presume on the parents because of their pain.
I am not clear on why you cannot reconcile this with Jesus' teaching on love. When the disciples came ot Jesus (in Matthew 17) and asked why they could not heal a young boy who was epiletic, Jesus didn't tell them "I love you all loads and these things just happen", he said "because of your unbelief".
Yes, he does say that, which is the part that makes me want to continue seeking him on that.
This is a simple question with a simple answer. None of the apostles died of cancer - they were killed by other people. We are redeemed from sickness, we are not redeemed from persecution. We cannot apply the Scriptures that pertain to one topic to the other!
So, you're saying that only physical illness is from Satan. Aren't those who killed the apostles led by Satan as well? Isn't this like saying we stand firm against Satan for some things and not for others? And why wouldn't "belief" ward off persecutions as well?
Timothy knew to believe for a complete healing and was presumably standing in faith. Paul did tell him to have a spirit of power, love and sound mind, and that he should stand and so on, but I guess this piece of personal advice was just to make it easier on him.
If someone is young in faith, like Timothy was, I would have no problems saying while you are standing in faith against the headache, take a panadol.
But, doesn't this contradict what you are saying below:
The Bible says resist the devil, not thank God for the works of the devil. Anything that steals, kills and destroys you is from the devil (John 10.10) and you should not accept it.
Gloria Copeland defines heresy as any doctrine that calls you to lay down at the feet of the devil.
When Paul was making it easier on Timothy, wasn't he doing what GC warns us against? And for the reason below:
You would rather leave them vulnerable to whatever attack the devil throws at them in the future.
If the parents had a 19 year old child die in a car crash who was a practising satanist, not a Christian, never been born again, died cursing and rejecting Jesus, would you tell them the truth about salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, or would you tell them something more palatable to help them through their despair?
Blessings,
Ben
I would say nothing and leave the final judgment of the 19-year-old to God. I would try to comfort the parents in their grief in any way I could. I really do believe it is okay to leave conviction at such times up to the Holy Spirit, as I have more faith in how the Spirit convicts a soul than in anything I might say.
__________________ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
Well, I would rather blame my own lack of faith. But, I wouldn't presume on the parents because of their pain.
People in pain are perfect? What a strange way of looking at it. Not saying that I wouldn't take responsibility - the entire church is responsible. Of course if the parents chose to go to a church where the Word is not preached clearly and without tradition, then there is a fault.
Yes, he does say that, which is the part that makes me want to continue seeking him on that.
Until he changes his mind? Jesus also tells Peter after he successfully walks on water that he had little faith, he tells the disciples who in a storm the first thing they do is turn to him that they had no faith, and he once called a woman who came to him for healing for her daughter a dog.
Loving people is not whitewashing the truth or softsoaping it. I am not saying we should not be compassionate with people, but we have to let people know the truth. I have had people leave our church because I told them the truth. God bless them I love them, and it was because I love them I told them.
If a couple divorce is God guilty for that? Is that just one of those things? Or would you tell a couple in pain that they were at fault in that situation?
So, you're saying that only physical illness is from Satan. Aren't those who killed the apostles led by Satan as well? Isn't this like saying we stand firm against Satan for some things and not for others? And why wouldn't "belief" ward off persecutions as well?
Suffering A Mixed Bag - Tree of Life Church, London. Let me refer you to this article on our church website explaining some of the different causes of suffering. You can stand against satan directly, but not against satan through another person because they have free will. I can provide a longer response to this, but not at the moment.
But, doesn't this contradict what you are saying below:
When Paul was making it easier on Timothy, wasn't he doing what GC warns us against? And for the reason below:
No, it makes perfect sense. What would make no sense is Paul telling Timothy to drink for his stomachs sake if the sickness or ailment was the will of God. Then he would be commanding Timothy to go against God!
I would say nothing and leave the final judgment of the 19-year-old to God. I would try to comfort the parents in their grief in any way I could. I really do believe it is okay to leave conviction at such times up to the Holy Spirit, as I have more faith in how the Spirit convicts a soul than in anything I might say.
So you don't see your responsibility as teaching the truth in love then? The Holy Spirit still speaks through men and women in love relationships with one another, that is why we must not forsake the assembling of the brethren.
Blessings,
Ben
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
People in pain are perfect? What a strange way of looking at it. Not saying that I wouldn't take responsibility - the entire church is responsible. Of course if the parents chose to go to a church where the Word is not preached clearly and without tradition, then there is a fault.
I'm puzzled by this response. I can't find where I indicated "people in pain are perfect."
[/quote]Loving people is not whitewashing the truth or softsoaping it. I am not saying we should not be compassionate with people, but we have to let people know the truth. I have had people leave our church because I told them the truth. God bless them I love them, and it was because I love them I told them.[/quote]
But, I take how Jesus treated Mary and Martha when Lazarus had died. He did not say anything to them about their lack of faith or God's will. He cried. And then he brought Lazarus back to life. In the same way, I would cry with them, but I would not presume to know who was at fault, faith wise.
If a couple divorce is God guilty for that? Is that just one of those things? Or would you tell a couple in pain that they were at fault in that situation?
I have had people come to me before making similar decisions, in one case the decision was whether to have an abortion or not. And I always tell them the truth then, before they act. But, once they've made the wrong decision, even if it was against godly advice, I can only comfort them in their suffering. Yes, the pain they feel is a result of their actions, but I don't say that unless they are ready to receive it. I pray for them too, because I know the Lord can bring anyone to repentance, if they are willing.
There have been times when I've said their pain is a result of their decision, but I try to focus on God's forgiveness and urge them to repent, be forgiven, and go in peace. I have done that before too.
Suffering A Mixed Bag - Tree of Life Church, London. Let me refer you to this article on our church website explaining some of the different causes of suffering. You can stand against satan directly, but not against satan through another person because they have free will. I can provide a longer response to this, but not at the moment.
Thank you for the link. I'll look over it when I have more time. (Right now, I'm about to go run errands.)
No, it makes perfect sense. What would make no sense is Paul telling Timothy to drink for his stomachs sake if the sickness or ailment was the will of God. Then he would be commanding Timothy to go against God!
I do very much agree with this!! I would never tell someone that illness or sickness is God's will. But, I'm not sure why some prayers of faith result in healing (and has happened in my own experience), and some do not (which has also happened in my own experience--except I will agree that in these cases, I simply did not have faith.) Why was I able to have faith in one case and not the other? I don't know.
__________________ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
I read the link, but the one question I still have is Job. How does one explain Job's suffering in terms of the different reasons for suffering the article points to. In a way, Job's friends all offered their reasons, many of which align with what is taught in this link, But God rebuked them (and Job as well!!).
How would you explain Job's suffering in terms of the linked article?
__________________ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
I read the link, but the one question I still have is Job. How does one explain Job's suffering in terms of the different reasons for suffering the article points to. In a way, Job's friends all offered their reasons, many of which align with what is taught in this link, But God rebuked them (and Job as well!!).
How would you explain Job's suffering in terms of the linked article?
Guys I haven't read all your posts in this thread, I just want to read the last post... Hehe!
Anyway, in the book of Job I believe it reveals what is really going on in the spirit or invisible world. Some things happen because of the Devil. God has a plan for our lives and they're good but Satan have a plan for our lives too but they're bad. Troubles and obstacles are part of our life but it's up to us to trust in the Lord or curse God. If you follow God, He will not guarantee you will not experience troubles or oppositions. Expect opposition from Satan if you're following God. If you're not following God you will receive less oppositions. Psalm 23 talks about the valley of shadow of death, see the process there. It says "I will fear no evil", if you're in the valley of shadow of death you will experience fear.
If you want to point out the deaths, check the death of Jesus and His disciples. When Jesus died, the gospel spread more. When the disciple was tortured or died, the gospel spread more. You need to understand these situations in order for you to understand the theme of Job.
In John 12:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain." Matthew 5:10-12 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
It's a promise if you serve God you will surely face oppositions. Job served God I believe and it's up to Him to trust/seek God or not. That's the Word of Faith because we trust His Word. Word of Faith cannot promise you that you will live forever.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "In everything Give Thanks..." To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
בושאהמשהוהי "Baruch Hashem Adonai!" "Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding" - To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
There are a couple of reasons. The main thing we must remember about Job is that Job was not redeemed from sin, sickness and poverty like we are. He did not live in the New Covenant like we do.
I have no fear I am going to be a modern day Job because there is no such thing as a modern day Job.
Another two issues are that we must remember that satan did what he did to Job. God didn't steal from him, make him sick or hurt him in anyway. Job did not have the authority over the devil that we have because he was not redeemed.
Secondly, God restored the fortunes of Job and gave him twice as much as he had before. Since Job was the richest man in the east before and ended up with twice as much, that meant that Job was richer than any two men in the area added together. Sounds great to me. If that is what it is like in the OT, imagine what it must can like for you and me in the New Covenant.
Blessings,
Ben
__________________ Never let experiences or circumstances determine how you interpret the Word.
Stand on the Word and change your experiences and circumstances.
Linear Mode
