AND Jesus condemns it directly by His definition of lawful marriage;
which is predicated upon GENDER: MALE AND FEMALE, at creation.
Nadiine, read it again. Its NOT a definition of marriage, but by all means, quote mine Jesus.
__________________ "As a scientific discussion grows longer, the probability of the side with an ideological rather than scientific basis for their claim (e.g. Creationists climate change deniers) citing "climate Gate" as an excuse for ignoring the scientific consensus approaches 1." LightHorseman's Law
The problem here is with "...lukewarm conceptually confused theology born out of the desire for some to want to live under the umbrella of Grace but judge everyone else through a Levitical Lens." RealDealNeverStop (as per One11's request)
Nadiine, read it again. Its NOT a definition of marriage, but by all means, quote mine Jesus.
Just to be clear, Jesus was stating that marriage should be until death parts them, and divorce was only allowed due to hardened hearts, right?
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
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Right. And what the proponents of homosex can't seem to grasp is that Jesus only defined ONE marriage that should be until death parts them and that is marriage between male and female, in accordance to God's divine creation of mankind, both the anatomical and physiological in Genesis to which He referred.
Contending for the faith,
Jack
Originally Posted by AngelusSax
Just to be clear, Jesus was stating that marriage should be until death parts them, and divorce was only allowed due to hardened hearts, right?
__________________ Heb. 12:6-8
The Lord chastens whom he loves, and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then you are bastards, and not sons.
(ie., if we refuse God's correction and change God's words to suit ourselves, then we deceive ourselves. Scripture says "you are therefore a bastard and not a son. God is not your Father."<---paraph-mine)
I went straight to the Greek Lexicon and it took me 2 hours to type this out. This is very detail. I see I have to get technical for those who mis-interpret. I even have commentaries from very respectable entities. All your job is to do is connect the words with the Greek meanings.
According to the Greek Lexicon; Dictionary English-Greek
Romans 1:24(KJV)
Wherefore(1352. dio (dee-o'))[/b] God (2316. theos (theh'-os)) also(2532. kai (kahee))gave (3860. paradidomi (par-ad-id'-o-mee))them(846. autos (ow-tos')) up(3860. paradidomi (par-ad-id'-o-mee)) to(1519. eis (ice)) uncleanness(167. akatharsia (ak-ath-ar-see'-ah)) through(1722. en (en)) the lusts(1939. epithumia (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah)) of their own(846. autos (ow-tos')) hearts (2588. kardia (kar-dee'-ah)) to dishonor (818. atimazo (at-im-ad'-zo)) their own (846. autos (ow-tos')) bodies (4983. soma (so'-mah)) between (1722. en (en)) themselves (1438. heautou (heh-ow-too'))
1352. dio (dee-o') for this reason, therefore, wherefore
2316. theos (theh'-os) the supreme Divinity, God, godly
2532. kai (kahee) and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so
3860. paradidomi (par-ad-id'-o-mee) betray, bring forth
846. autos (ow-tos') herself, himself, itself, he, she, it, same
3860. paradidomi (par-ad-id'-o-mee) betray, bring forth
1519. eis (ice) against, among, as, at, backward, before
167. akatharsia (ak-ath-ar-see'-ah) uncleanness; impurity (the quality), physically or morally -- uncleanness.
1722. en (en) about, after, as
1939. epithumia (ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah) passion, desire, lust a longing (especially for what is forbidden) -- concupiscence, desire, lust (after).
846. autos (ow-tos') herself, himself, itself, he, she, it, same
2588. kardia (kar-dee'-ah) the heart, thoughts, feelings
818. atimazo (at-im-ad'-zo) despise, dishonor, suffer shame
846. autos (ow-tos') herself, himself, itself, he, she, it, same
4983. soma (so'-mah) the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally
1722. en (en) about, after, as
1438. heautou (heh-ow-too') alone, herself, himself, itself, own
Who(3748. hostis (hos'-tis)) changed(3337. metallasso (met-al-las'-so)) the truth (225. aletheia (al-ay'-thi-a)) of God(2316. theos (theh'-os)) into(1722. en (en)) a lie (5579. pseudos (psyoo'-dos)) and (2532. kai (kahee)) worshipped(4573. sebazomai (seb-ad'-zom-ahee)) and (2532. kai (kahee)) served (3000. latreuo (lat-ryoo'-o)) the creature(2937. ktisis (ktis'-is)) more than (3844. para (par-ah')) the Creator(2936. ktizo (ktid'-zo)) who (3739. hos (hos)) is (2076. esti (es-tee')) blessed (2128. eulogetos (yoo-log-ay-tos')) for (1519. eis (ice)) ever (165. aion (ahee-ohn'))Amen
3748. hostis (hos'-tis) whoever, whichever, whatever
3337. metallasso (met-al-las'-so) to exchange
225. aletheia (al-ay'-thi-a) truth
2316. theos (theh'-os) the supreme Divinity, God, godly
1722. en (en) about, after, as
5579. pseudos (psyoo'-dos) lie, lying
2532. kai (kahee) and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so
4573. sebazomai (seb-ad'-zom-ahee) worship; to venerate, i.e. Adore -- worship.
2532. kai (kahee) and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so
3000. latreuo (lat-ryoo'-o) serve, do the service, worship
2937. ktisis (ktis'-is) creation, creature; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively) -- building, creation, creature, ordinance.
3844. para (par-ah') beside, among, at, before, by
2936. ktizo (ktid'-zo) to create; to fabricate, i.e. Found (form originally) -- create, Creator, make.
3739. hos (hos) one, other, some, that, what, which 2076. esti (es-tee') are, belong, call, come, consist
2128. eulogetos (yoo-log-ay-tos') blessed; adorable -- blessed.
1519. eis (ice) against, among, as, at, backward, before
165. aion (ahee-ohn') age, course, eternal, forever
281. amen (am-ane') amen, verily; properly, firm, i.e. (figuratively) trustworthy; adverbially, surely (often as interjection, so be it) -- amen, verily.
And (5037. te (teh))likewise (3668. homoios (hom-oy'-oce))also (2532. kai (kahee))the men (730. arrhen (ar'-hrane))leaving (863. aphiemi (af-ee'-ay-mee))the natural (5446. phusikos (foo-see-kos'))use (5540. chresis (khray'-sis))of the woman (2338. thelus (thay'-loos))burned (1572. ekkaio (ek-kah'-yo))in (1722. en (en))their (846. autos (ow-tos'))lust (3715. orexis (or'-ex-is))one toward another (1519. eis (ice)) __ (240. allelon (al-lay'-lone))men (730. arrhen (ar'-hrane))with (1722. en (en))men (730. arrhen (ar'-hrane))working (2716. katergazomai (kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee))that which is unseemly (808.aschemosune (as-kay-mos-oo'-nay))and (2532. kai (kahee)) receiving (618. apolambano (ap-ol-am-ban'-o))in (1722. en (en))themselves (1438. heautou (heh-ow-too'))that recompence (489. antimisthia (an-tee-mis-thee'-ah))of their (846. autos (ow-tos'))error (4106. plane (plan'-ay))which (3739. hos (hos))was meet(1163. dei (die))
5037. te (teh) also, and, both, even
3668. homoios (hom-oy'-oce) likewise, so; similarly
2532. kai (kahee) and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so
730. arrhen (ar'-hrane) male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man.
863. aphiemi (af-ee'-ay-mee) lay aside, leave, let go, omit; hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow) -- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.
5446. phusikos (foo-see-kos') "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive -- natural.
5540. chresis (khray'-sis) employment, i.e. (specially), sexual intercourse (as an occupation of the body) -- use.
2338. thelus (thay'-loos) female -- female, woman.
1572. ekkaio (ek-kah'-yo) to inflame deeply -- burn.
1722. en (en) about, after, as
846. autos (ow-tos') herself, himself, itself, he, she, it, same
3715. orexis (or'-ex-is) excitement of the mind, i.e. Longing after -- lust.
1519. eis (ice) against, among, as, at, backward, before
240. allelon (al-lay'-lone) one another -- each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-)selves, (selves) together
730. arrhen (ar'-hrane) male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man.
1722. en (en) about, after, as
730. arrhen (ar'-hrane) male (as stronger for lifting) -- male, man. 2716. katergazomai (kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee) to work fully, i.e. Accomplish; by implication, to finish, fashion -- cause, to (deed), perform, work (out).
808. aschemosune (as-kay-mos-oo'-nay) an indecency; by implication, the pudenda -- shame, that which is unseemly.
2532. kai (kahee) and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so
618. apolambano (ap-ol-am-ban'-o) to receive (specially, in full, or as a host); also to take aside -- receive, take.
1722. en (en) about, after, as
1438. heautou (heh-ow-too') alone, herself, himself, itself, own
489. antimisthia (an-tee-mis-thee'-ah) requital, correspondence – recompense; reward
846. autos (ow-tos') herself, himself, itself, he, she, it, same
4106. plane (plan'-ay) objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety -- deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.
3739. hos (hos) one, other, some, that, what, which
1163. dei (die) needful, ought, should; also deon deh-on'; neuter active participle of the same; both used impersonally; it is (was, etc.) Necessary (as binding) -- behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need(-ful), ought, should.
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that {l} recompence of their error which was meet.
(l) An appropriate reward and that which they deserved.
Wesley's Notes
1:27 Receiving the just recompense of their error - Their idolatry being punished with that unnatural lust, which was as horrible a dishonour to the body, as their idolatry was to God.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
27. and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet-alluding to the many physical and moral ways in which, under the righteous government of God, vice was made self-avenging.
When reading the Greek meaning and Commentaries it is Clear that in verse 26 & 27 are doing things they ought not to do. Lustful actions to each other. God gave them what they wanted. Their Lust for one another. What else does it mean for a man and another man to Lust? I can't think of another think else but homosexuality in Romans 1:24-27.
Right. And what the proponents of homosex can't seem to grasp is that Jesus only defined ONE marriage that should be until death parts them and that is marriage between male and female, in accordance to God's divine creation of mankind, both the anatomical and physiological in Genesis to which He referred.
Would it be fair then, to say, that man and woman, together, are a more complete representation of the character/nature of God, since they are both made in His image (the only creation said to be so)? And therefore, since they are a more complete representation of God together, that representation cannot be made to its fullest in a man/man or woman/woman relationship?
And the second part that flows from that is this:
Is marriage supposed to, by definition, be that representation, or is it a representation regardless of necessitation of that?
When reading the Greek meaning and Commentaries it is Clear that in verse 26 & 27 are doing things they ought not to do. Lustful actions to each other. God gave them what they wanted. Their Lust for one another. What else does it mean for a man and another man to Lust? I can't think of another think else but homosexuality in Romans 1:24-27.
Yes, they were. It is also heavily implied, if not stated outright, that they exchanged their natural heterosexual orientation for homosexual activity in their lustings. That does not necessarily mean that all humans are created with heterosexual orientations, but that these men (and women), were in fact heterosexual, engaged in heterosexual marriages, and then went on boinking same-gendered people (which was both an exchange of their natural desires for their idolatry-driven desires, as well as adultery, which idolatry is a spiritual form of).
Now, let's take a look at the follow-up (which is not an afterthought) of Romans 1.... Romans 2 (specifically vv 1-6)
1 If you think you can judge others, you are wrong. When you judge them, you are really judging yourself guilty, because you do the same things they do.2 God judges those who do wrong things, and we know that his judging is right.3 You judge those who do wrong, but you do wrong yourselves. Do you think you will be able to escape the judgment of God?4 He has been very kind and patient, waiting for you to change, but you think nothing of his kindness. Perhaps you do not understand that God is kind to you so you will change your hearts and lives.5 But you are stubborn and refuse to change, so you are making your own punishment even greater on the day he shows his anger. On that day everyone will see God's right judgments.
It would seem that Paul was giving just as heavy a warning to those who judge the homosexual-sex-engaging person, the gossip, the slanderer, etc. because he knew they were doing the same things they judged against, that is, sinning. One need not be engaging in homosexual behavior to be warned against judging those who do, because when one sins at all, they break the entire law. It's not as if they had broke the entire law, they really and truly do break every single one of the little laws that make up the entirety of the Law. Which means, in a way we don't understand:
If you have gossiped, you've had homosexual sex. If you have slandered someone, you have had homosexual sex. When you harbor hatred in your heart, you have killed, which means you have had homosexual sex. If you eat shrimp, you have had homosexual sex. If work on the Sabbath, even the least little bit, you have had homosexual sex. If you have ever disrespected your parents, you have had homosexual sex.
Why? To break one law is to break all of the Law, every last detail.
The law can either be ahead of us, waiting to be fulfilled in the damned, or behind us, already fulfilled in the blessed, in Christ. It is not abolished, it is eternal, one way or the other. Those who have Christ, and harp on the law over and over again to others, show that they place at least some of their faith in the law, even if they do not do so consciously.
We may live by the Ten Commandments, or any other of the laws in the Old Testament, for being wise and good rules to live by. But the key is we may do that. If we ever think we must obey even one part of the law (even as we make ourselves feel better by relegating the ones we don't follow as ceremonial law) to either earn or to keep our salvation, then we have lost sight of Christ and placed our gaze firmly on the idol we make out of the Law.
__________________ Don't fear tomorrow And don't fear the night It's where God repairs sorrows That enter your life -TSO
The world isn't the way it's supposed to be. That's why there's us. Champions. We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be. -TV's Angel
If you want to arrange it, this world you can change it, if we could just somehow make this Christmas thing last... By helping a neighbor, or even a stranger, and to know who needs help, you need only just ask. -TSO
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Last edited by AngelusSax; 7th July 2009 at 12:41 PM.
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