And yet you deliberately omit the proper context (Romans 1:18 - 2:3ff). These are not just isolated verses, but part of a single connected teaching, as can be seen by the connecting phrases "Therefore, God ..." and "Because of this, God..." So who is the one quoting it out of context?
To see what it says in its proper context, see my postings in this thread.
I read what you were talking about in your thread.....
("Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?")
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Are you imply that I am judging unrighteously? I'm not doing a unrighteous judgment. There is a sober judgment.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version)
3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
My Testimony:
It has been the month and year of April/2008 since I have had sex with a woman. I was a typical Guy playing church at the time. I was convicted by the Holy Spirit that month and since then I haven't had the pleasure with a woman. That has been more than a year. This is all God's doing. If it were my strength alone then I would have gone back to sex a week after my conviction within the month of April/2008. It is the strength of God in me to go on with out that sexual immorality. Sure I get urges but I die daily to the works of the flesh as Paul states in his epistles. I no longer live so Christ lives in me.
Back to the discussion.........
Unrighteous judging consist of me specifically pointing at someone outside the covenant of Jesus Christ. An unbeliever. If a person wants to live the life style of sexual immorality then let them live it. I don't judge them.....Sexual immorality(Either Lust, Fornication, Incest, Homosexuals((Not the ones who want to change in Jesus Christ/ It is the ones who are in Christ who don't want to change and live there life not according to what God commands)), Adulterers, etc...) Paul tells us not to worry for the people outside of the Church. God will judge them. Paul instructs us to judge those inside of the church regarding with Sexual Immorality. That means all types of sexual immorality.....ALL.
1 Corinthians 5 (New International Version)
1 Corinthians 5
Expel the Immoral Brother!
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
This applies to a brother or sister in Christ who proudly alright with sexual immorality. The proper morality with sexuality is within a married man and woman. Outside of this union is immoral.
Let me clarify this if a brother and sister in Christ calls themselves Christians and they say it is ok with sexual immorality.....any types of sexual immorality. That, according to Paul, "And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present." There is a broad avenue in sexual immorality. There are many types of sexual immorality. Any immoral acts with sex involved is sexual immorality. I.e. Naked bodies that involve lust. Lust is an extreme unrighteous desire for something.
The following is from the works of St. Thomas Aquinas from the book: A Tour of the Summa, Msgr. Paul J. Glenn, published by TAN BOOKS AND PUBLISHERS, Used with permission. Summa Theologia-[IIa IIae], Questions 153 & 154: Question 153. LUST 1. Lust is the vice of indulging in unlawful sexual pleasures. 2. The use of sex is not always lustful or sinful. There is a good and virtuous use of sex in marriage, when husband and wife perform their normal and natural function of sex without any inordinateness (that is, without anything that is in conflict with reason) and, therefore, without employing any unnatural or artificial means of thwarting the natural effect of their action. The only lawful and chaste use of sex is its lawful use in marriage. 3. Lust consists in disregarding the order and mode dictated by reason for the use of sex. Therefore, lust conflicts with reason, and is a sin. The habit of lust is a vice. 4. Lust is listed with the capital sins because many other sins flow from it as from their source. 5. St. Gregory (Moral. XXXI) enumerates "the daughters of lust" as follows: blindness of mind; thoughtlessness; rashness; inconstancy; love of self; hatred for God; worldliness; dread of a future life.
154. THE PARTS OF LUST 1. The parts of lust are the species or types of lustful sins. These parts are six: fornication, adultery, incest, seduction, rape, unnatural vice((this points out to Homosexuality.....Not Natural)). 2. Fornication is the normal, but unlawful, use of sex by an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. Fornication is a mortal sin, for it is a great inordinateness in the parties who are guilty of it; is opposed to the good of offspring (for only marriage establishes the home which children require, and to which they have a right), and it is plainly against the common welfare both in physical and moral effects. 3. Fornication is a grave sin of the flesh. It is not the greatest of all sins, for sins of the spirit, sins of malice, are more grievous than any carnal sin. 4. Kisses and touches that are lustful are also mortal sins. 5. Whatever occurs in sleep cannot be sinful in itself. Yet it may be sinful in its cause. If, before sleeping, a person is guilty of thoughts, desires, or deeds that are lustful, he is at least partly responsible for impurities that subsequently occur during sleep. 6. Seduction is the violation of a virgin. It is a species of lust, and is therefore a grievous sin. 7. Rape is a species of lust-and gravely sinful-in which force is employed in committing a lustful action. 8. Adultery is the normal, but unlawful, use of sex by a married and a single person, or by two married persons, who, however, are not married to each other. This grievous sin is far worse than fornication, for it violates not only chastity, but it is a gross violation of justice (committed against the true spouse of the married party, or against both spouses of the married parties). Besides, it is a more damaging offense against the common good than fornication is. 9. Incest is the use of sex by man and woman who are related by ties of blood, or by affinity, that is, by relationship arising out of a marriage. It has all the grievous character of lust, plus the violation of justice (if either party is married), and the violation of the virtue of piety. 10. Lust becomes sacrilege when it involves sacred or consecrated persons, things, or places. 11. Unnatural vice is any lustful perversion of normal and natural processes for procuring sex pleasures. 12. Unnatural vice is the worst of all sins of lust, for it is most gravely shameful as acting against the ordinance of nature. Yet all willful sins of lust are mortal sins.
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Let me make my point clear.....I'm not talking about Christians, who struggle with Homosexuality, trying to change/sacrifice for the cause of Jesus Christ. They are on the right track. I'm talking about the ones who say they are Christians who are in all Sexual immorality without wanting to change their ways for God and are alright with staying Homosexual and stating,"Yes I believe in Christ but I love/lust what I do, so much, with the same sex partner and I don't want to change it......" This doesn't apply only to homosexuality. It applies to all avenues or those who are doing unrighteous acts within the definition of Sexual immorality.
Last edited by Jadin Xquire; 7th July 2009 at 12:48 AM.
I oppose homosexuality for my personal life. If someone wants to be homosexual then let them be. I don't judge them. If they want to be Christians and want to give up that life style then fine. I know it won't take a night to change. There is a process. I understand that. I oppose Christians who want to continue the homosexual lifestyle without planning any change from the homosexual lifestyle. Paul judges those Christians, in all Sexual Immorality, and so do I.
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Originally Posted by genez
The distinction is to be understood by what is written about.
Some people believe that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are covering the same aspects of law. One has to do with personal liberties, the other with how we are to be governed. Can you make them see they are not the same if they keep failing to see the distinctions?
Most do see it. Those who can't? A waste of time to keep trying to explain if they can not see it for themselves.. Could lead to insulting them if it dragged on for too long. No? Might get someone sinning and out of fellowship if they allow themselves to be dragged into such an argument. The devil loves to create irrational logical sounding arguments to rob believers of the fellowship the Spirit offers those who walk in truth.
Eternity will be full of wonder and awe. Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom unless he becomes like a little child. We will all be made to be filled with awe and wonder. Too bad that while in time, some of us would rather be filled with something other.
.
Translation : I can in no way support the contention that the Bible makes any distinction between so called moral and ceremonial laws, so allow me to attempt to distract you with some obfuscatory gibberish
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Originally Posted by genez
Were they? Were they treated differently?
Bestiality and incest had a different outcome when caught than homosexuality? Adultery?
They all shared in the death penalty. But, out of all that did so qualify? Only one was considered an abomination. Why?
Ever wonder why? Maybe it because God knew that such who pervert his design as they are capable of, are also easily willing to pervert his Word. Without blinking an eye. I think that may be one reason it was singled out as the abomination on that list of dead men walking.
I can see more and more why it was seen as an abomination. And, its not even about the sexual aspect.
Romans 1:18 " The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
I never wonder what I am dealing with when it comes to certain arguments... .
So if they're to be considered the same, why does the language for them change?
But all thats rather beside the point isn't it? I'm under the new covenant with Christ, aren't you?
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Originally Posted by Jadin Xquire
I oppose homosexuality for my personal life. If someone wants to be homosexual then let them be. I don't judge them. If they want to be Christians and want to give up that life style then fine. I know it won't take a night to change. There is a process. I understand that. I oppose Christians who want to continue the homosexual lifestyle without planning any change from the homosexual lifestyle. Paul judges those Christians, in all Sexual Immorality, and so do I.
And yet Christ tells us not to judge. See what you might be doing wrong there?
I read what you were talking about in your thread.....
("Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?")
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Are you imply that I am judging unrighteously? I'm not doing a unrighteous judgment. There is a sober judgment.
No I am saying that the focus of the letter to the Romans is not on the details of the Law, because by the Law, no one is justified.
Even in Chapter1, verses 18-32 Paul is not giving us a list to judge others by, but rather it is saying that even though your sins may seem as nothing compared to someone who is guilty of all these sins, if we are guilty of even one little sin, we are guilty under the whole of the Law. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." "The wages of sin is death."
But the good news is that we are Redeemed by Grace and are dead to the Law.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:2-4
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Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them [those of the Jewish converts that still relied on the Law and good works -- see Chapter 9, verses 30-33] is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, `WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN ?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or `WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS ?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Romans 10:1-13
And yet Christ tells us not to judge. See what you might be doing wrong there?
Did you read what Paul said? Read the post again. He judges Christians who openly admit they are in Sexual Immorality; this include those Christians who don't want to change their homosexual lifestyle. It clearly states it in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul is not judging the non-Christians/The World. That is God's task. I don't judge the world. Just like Paul, I judge those who are indulging in Sexual Immorality and that do not want to change their ways in Sexual Immorality. I didn't write the passage of 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Paul did. He wrote this because his writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I just didn't make this up. I'm just being obedient to what the Holy Spirit is instructing through Paul. I repeat again this does not apply to homosexual, Adulterers, Fornicators, etc.... who do not proclaim to be Christians. It only applies to Christians who willfully do wrong and let others know it is okay do indulge Sexual Immorality. When a Christian tells other he/she is a homosexual and is willing to change. There is no judgment from the church. If it is a Christian that is indulging in Sexual Immorality(i.e. Homosexual acts) and he/she is not willing to change their lifestyle then Paul judges.....The Church has the right to judge. Read this from the same Chapter.....
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 (New International Version)
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
****Paul has instructed, through the Holy Spirit, to not associate with people that indulge in sexual immorality****
10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
****Paul is not talking about the people in the world who are immoral, or greedy, swindlers, or idolaters. If this is the case we Christians would have to leave this world.....Paul is stating do not judge the people of the world......****
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
****Paul is writing to Christians(That are doing right in God's Eyes) to not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, idolater, slanderer, drunkard, or swindler. Paul even said not to even eat with the so-called Christians. They give Christianity a bad name.****
Understand the context of the passage. It isn't my word. It is Holy Spirit's word through Paul. If you disagree with this you are disagreeing with an Apostle of God. I think he knows better than you and I. Unless you think you know God better than the Apostle Paul. If Paul wanted to he could boast that he is a Pharisee of Pharisees, but he doesn't.
It is people in the Church that judges Church members who indulge in Sexual Immorality. I'm not referring to people who are of the world. Understand the difference.
Am I still wrong?
And yet Christ tells us not to judge. See what you might be doing wrong there?
All I was stating in my personal life I don't accept homosexuality for myself. I don't practice the acts of homosexuality. I was and still am not attracted to men. If another person wants to live like that then that is the choice of that person.
And yet Christ tells us not to judge. See what you might be doing wrong there?
You are actually judging what is right or wrong.You dont see that?Your standards of morality are different to whats written in the bible..isnt that setting your own standard or being a judge..
Plus your golden rule of consent falls when it applies to breaking secular laws,why is Gods law easier to maneuver or outright disobey?
There wont be any homosexuals entering into Gods kingdom,nothing can be written any plainer.
Last edited by praisejahupeople; 7th July 2009 at 03:05 AM.
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