Is Yeshuah YHVH? (2)

Der Alter · #41 19th October 2008, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH

Just to clear things up, I post a disclaimer on my web sites and pages as follows:

DISCLAIMER: As mentioned on my other web sites and pages, I do not espouse to all of the beliefs expressed on the reciprocal links I have provided here. My web sites are a venture into the pros and cons of diverse aspects of religious beliefs. I leave it completely up to each individual to decide what is truth and what is not. I am also not responsible for any cost or donational purchases that are made through these links. These reciprocal links are purely for educational and research purpose only. Please view these links at your own discretion.

As you may have noted, Der Alter disputed a few aspects of the sources in my posts that I had copied and pasted from my Xanga blog that I do not totally espouse to. My point in posting these was to show that not all in the so called "Church" agree with Trinity teaching. Many erroneously re refer to me as an anti-Trinitarian in the sense that I am against Trinitarians persoally. I understand that many are taught the Trinity doctrine and believe it to be a Scriptural teaching. I am more accurately anti-Trinity as opposed to being anti-Trinitarian as relating to an individuals personally. I am against those who attack me personally because I do not believe their "Holy Trinity" and "deity of Jesus Christ" doctrine to the extent that they believe that if I do not espouse to such a foolish and unscriptural doctrine, that I have no hope of redemption and that I will burn forever and ever in their mythical view of what "hell" is.

If the Christian understanding of hell is mythical, then they have a long history from the Jews, before the Christian era. See the article on Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

As for the rest of your blog. Sorry but I have no interest or time to address pages and pages of cut and paste from every God hating, Jesus hating, Bible hating, atheist website around, which attacks Christianity or Christian doctrines. As you have acknowledged you copy/pasted 2d-3d hand sources without bothering to check any of it and much of it you don't believe yourself.

Your disclaimer does NOT relieve you of any responsibility for propagating false information which directly or indirectly attacks Christians or the church.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Bananna · #42 20th October 2008, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH

Peace greetings Bananna,

Just to clear things up, I post a disclaimer on my web sites and pages as follows:

DISCLAIMER: As mentioned on my other web sites and pages, I do not espouse to all of the beliefs expressed on the reciprocal links I have provided here. My web sites are a venture into the pros and cons of diverse aspects of religious beliefs. I leave it completely up to each individual to decide what is truth and what is not. I am also not responsible for any cost or donational purchases that are made through these links. These reciprocal links are purely for educational and research purpose only. Please view these links at your own discretion.

As you may have noted, Der Alter disputed a few aspects of the sources in my posts that I had copied and pasted from my Xanga blog that I do not totally espouse to. My point in posting these was to show that not all in the so called "Church" agree with Trinity teaching. Many erroneously re refer to me as an anti-Trinitarian in the sense that I am against Trinitarians persoally. I understand that many are taught the Trinity doctrine and believe it to be a Scriptural teaching. I am more accurately anti-Trinity as opposed to being anti-Trinitarian as relating to an individuals personally. I am against those who attack me personally because I do not believe their "Holy Trinity" and "deity of Jesus Christ" doctrine to the extent that they believe that if I do not espouse to such a foolish and unscriptural doctrine, that I have no hope of redemption and that I will burn forever and ever in their mythical view of what "hell" is.

Oh Hell!

Redemption

Yes and it is hard not to post a lot of information in trying to look at the many views out there.

I don't disagree with looking at the pros and cons of different views in the light of scripture. I'm glad you are open to investigating and evaluating them. Many are not willing to even give validity to an argument they disagree with.

When looking at YHVH and Yeshua the Son of God, we see the explanations are as numberous as the stars. And yet all may still be lacking complete accuracy.

The thought of having my son read all these posts and sum it up in one short paragraph, is a bit humorous to me. We are now on page? Well I can't see the page number in this format, but we have been looking at this idea of the Father and Son for a few years and a lot of posts and while some try and prove their view of the Father and Son, by proving the Trinity, most definitions of the Trinity, the real question is if they are ONE how are they one and if they are different how are they different. I don't disagree that they are both different and ONE.
bananna

2ducklow · #43 20th October 2008, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bananna

Yes and it is hard not to post a lot of information in trying to look at the many views out there.

I don't disagree with looking at the pros and cons of different views in the light of scripture. I'm glad you are open to investigating and evaluating them. Many are not willing to even give validity to an argument they disagree with.

When looking at YHVH and Yeshua the Son of God, we see the explanations are as numberous as the stars. And yet all may still be lacking complete accuracy.

The one explanation that is not lacking accuracy at all is scriture.

John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.ASV

That they (2ducklow, bananna, frank, etc) even as we (God the Father, Jesus).

Originally Posted by bananna

The thought of having my son read all these posts and sum it up in one short paragraph, is a bit humorous to me. We are now on page? Well I can't see the page number in this format, but we have been looking at this idea of the Father and Son for a few years and a lot of posts and while some try and prove their view of the Father and Son, by proving the Trinity, most definitions of the Trinity, the real question is if they are ONE how are they one and if they are different how are they different. I don't disagree that they are both different and ONE.
bananna

other one scriptures

John 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

John 10:30 I and the Father are one. (even as we are one, see john 17.22, 11)

So just show the kids these scriptures, they explain everything.

Bananna · #44 20th October 2008, 05:55 PM

true scripture is not wrong.
Kids tend to need concrete comparisons, interesting that we need to come to the father as a child. Not a great theologian. Just as a child.
page 105.
Ya all are a blessing to study and learn with.
bananna

Frank4YAHWEH · #45 21st October 2008, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Der Alter

If the Christian understanding of hell is mythical, then they have a long history from the Jews, before the Christian era. See the article on Gehenna in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

As for the rest of your blog. Sorry but I have no interest or time to address pages and pages of cut and paste from every God hating, Jesus hating, Bible hating, atheist website around, which attacks Christianity or Christian doctrines. As you have acknowledged you copy/pasted 2d-3d hand sources without bothering to check any of it and much of it you don't believe yourself.

Your disclaimer does NOT relieve you of any responsibility for propagating false information which directly or indirectly attacks Christians or the church.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Der Alter,

The topic of this thread is "Is Yeshuah YHVH", and not an attack on "Christians". It is more of an attack on the "Holy Trinity" and "Yahshua is his Father Yahweh" doctrines and not an a attack on Christians personally. If there was not a belief that Yahshua is Yahweh, those who espouse to a "Holy Trinity" would not have a leg to stand on so, a discussion on the so called "Holy Trinity" goes hand in hand with this discussion "Is Yeshuah YHVH?". As you well know, there are diverse teachings among the so called "Christian" religions and not all "Christians" believe in a "Holy Trinity" and that Yahshua is his Father Yahweh. There are also diverse explanations and disagreements about the "Holy Trinity" and the "Jesus is God" doctrines among the many Christian religions "of this world". If "Trinitarian Christians" take this discussion as a personal attack, it is their fault for believing such foolishness.

To Espouse to a "Holy Trinity (triune God)" and that Yahshua is His Father Yahweh is propagating false information that is not in accordance with Father Yahweh's inspired word.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

To Believe "Jesus IS God!" Is To Be Deceived!

By And Through

Trinity Links

Bananna · #46 21st October 2008, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH

Der Alter,

The topic of this thread is "Is Yeshuah YHVH", and not an attack on "Christians". It is more of an attack on the "Holy Trinity" and "Yahshua is his Father Yahweh" doctrines and not an a attack on Christians personally. If there was not a belief that Yahshua is Yahweh, those who espouse to a "Holy Trinity" would not have a leg to stand on so, a discussion on the so called "Holy Trinity" goes hand in hand with this discussion "Is Yeshuah YHVH?". As you well know, there are diverse teachings among the so called "Christian" religions and not all "Christians" believe in a "Holy Trinity" and that Yahshua is his Father Yahweh. There are also diverse explanations and disagreements about the "Holy Trinity" and the "Jesus is God" doctrines among the many Christian religions "of this world". If "Trinitarian Christians" take this discussion as a personal attack, it is their fault for believing such foolishness.

To Espouse to a "Holy Trinity (triune God)" and that Yahshua is His Father Yahweh is propagating false information that is not in accordance with Father Yahweh's inspired word.
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/index.htm

I personally don't mean to attack anyones belief. I once believed in Modalism as my form of Trinitarian doctrine. When I found out that I was considered a heretic I learned more and grew out of all forms of Trinitarian and triunity teaching.

I find the Eastern Orthodox explaination probably the easiest to follow on the doctrine of the Trinity, but have not studied their actual diffinitions of religious terms yet.

I did want to combat modalism, but I can totally respect that is a view held by many and denighed by a majority at CF.
bananna

Der Alter · #47 22nd October 2008, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH

Der Alter,

The topic of this thread is "Is Yeshuah YHVH", and not an attack on "Christians". It is more of an attack on the "Holy Trinity" and "Yahshua is his Father Yahweh" doctrines and not an a attack on Christians personally. If there was not a belief that Yahshua is Yahweh, those who espouse to a "Holy Trinity" would not have a leg to stand on so, a discussion on the so called "Holy Trinity" goes hand in hand with this discussion "Is Yeshuah YHVH?".

And your "discussion," is an attack on the Trinity, thus an attack on Trinitarians. Much more so because you have posted so much false, distorted information attacking both. For example, the current editions of Encyclopedia Britannica and Americana, do NOT say what your quotes claim, if they ever did.

As you well know, there are diverse teachings among the so called "Christian" religions and not all "Christians" believe in a "Holy Trinity" and that Yahshua is his Father Yahweh. There are also diverse explanations and disagreements about the "Holy Trinity" and the "Jesus is God" doctrines among the many Christian religions "of this world". If "Trinitarian Christians" take this discussion as a personal attack, it is their fault for believing such foolishness.

I also know there are many, many contradictory varieties of anti-Trinitarianism, none that I know of that existed before 1830. I posted some scripture earlier in this thread, which AFIK have not been addressed. I will ask my question again, other than vague references to the N.T., can you show me a church that practiced and believed as you do between 90 AD and 1830? All anti-Trinitarianism, in the U.S., began in the late 19th and early 20th century; LDS - 1830, kristadelfian - 1850, JW - 1872, OP - 1913, WWCG - 1920.

To Espouse to a "Holy Trinity (triune God)" and that Yahshua is His Father Yahweh is propagating false information that is not in accordance with

This may be what you think, but you have done NOTHING to prove it.

2ducklow · #48 22nd October 2008, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Bananna

I personally don't mean to attack anyones belief. I once believed in Modalism as my form of Trinitarian doctrine. When I found out that I was considered a heretic I learned more and grew out of all forms of Trinitarian and triunity teaching.

To a certain extent, the difference between trinity and oneness is just a matter of semantics. except for people like me with new and improved oneness doctrine without the trinitarian jargon and reasoning, such as Jesus has 2 natures.
But really everyone is a heretic, that is if you examine every single thing people believe everyone, including trinitarians, have non trinitarian views. Many, if not most trinitarians, expouse apollinarianism when they say that Jesus had no human spirit but that it was the logos or god the son who is the logos that was his spirit. that is apollonarianism and condemned by the councils as heresy. Plus theres lots in those council meatings that all protestants reject. the council of chalcedon says that if you don't believe mary is the mother of God you are damned to hell. whoops there goes all the protestants. but they say , oh its ok to reject that and you won't be a heretic, only if you reject the trinity portions of the councils are you a heretic. Not so, that's not fair either, they get to reject what they want and call us heretics, but we can't reject what they want to keep , according to them. Anyway, everybody is a heretic, according to the 21 general councils commonly called the ecumenical councils.

Originally Posted by bananna

I find the Eastern Orthodox explaination probably the easiest to follow on the doctrine of the Trinity, but have not studied their actual diffinitions of religious terms yet.

eastern orthodox only came about in like 800 ad, well after trinity was firmly established. So aren't their doctrines essentially the same as the catholics? they both got the same general councils they consider authoritative.

Originally Posted by bananna

I did want to combat modalism, but I can totally respect that is a view held by many and denighed by a majority at CF.
bananna

Frank4YAHWEH · #49 22nd October 2008, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Der Alter

And your "discussion," is an attack on the Trinity, thus an attack on Trinitarians. Much more so because you have posted so much false, distorted information attacking both. For example, the current editions of Encyclopedia Britannica and Americana, do NOT say what your quotes claim, if they ever did.

I also know there are many, many contradictory varieties of anti-Trinitarianism, none that I know of that existed before 1830. I posted some scripture earlier in this thread, which AFIK have not been addressed. I will ask my question again, other than vague references to the N.T., can you show me a church that practiced and believed as you do between 90 AD and 1830? All anti-Trinitarianism, in the U.S., began in the late 19th and early 20th century; LDS - 1830, kristadelfian - 1850, JW - 1872, OP - 1913, WWCG - 1920.

This may be what you think, but you have done NOTHING to prove it.

Sure I have! You just refuse to be in accord with what Scripture teaches. All you can do is quote men's twisted (wrest[ed]) "private interpretation" of what they believe Father Yahweh's inspired word says and add on to it and take away from it to their own destruction.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Kepha [Peter] 1:20).

The above passage is in reference to your so called "Old Testament" since your so called "New Testament" had not yet been compiled at the time setting of when this was said. You will find not one mention of a so called "Holy Trinty" in your so called "Old Testament" or your so called "New Testament".

As also in all his (Shaul's [Paul]) letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the Scriptures, unto their own destruction (2 Kepha [Peter] 3:16).

For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, Yahweh shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, Yahweh shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the set apart city, and from the things which are written in this book (Revelation 22:18-19).

You have yet to prove that there is a "Holy Trinity" doctrine taught in Scripture because, there is NOTHING in Scripture concerning any of the various "Holy Trinity" doctrines. All of the "Holy Trinity" doctrines that are espoused to are merely words added unto Father Yahweh's inspired word and in turn taking away from His inspired word.

Trinity Links

To Believe "Jesus IS God!" Is To Be Deceived!

By And Through

Der Alter · #50 22nd October 2008, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH

Sure I have! You just refuse to be in accord with what Scripture teaches. All you can do is quote men's twisted (wrest[ed]) "private interpretation" of what they believe Father Yahweh's inspired word says and add on to it and take away from it to their own destruction.

* * *Irrelevant scripture omitted* * *
The above passage is in reference to your so called "Old Testament" since your so called "New Testament" had not yet been compiled at the time setting of when this was said. You will find not one mention of a so called "Holy Trinty" in your so called "Old Testament" or your so called "New Testament".
* * *Irrelevant scripture omitted* * *
You have yet to prove that there is a "Holy Trinity" doctrine taught in Scripture because, there is NOTHING in Scripture concerning any of the various "Holy Trinity" doctrines. All of the "Holy Trinity" doctrines that are espoused to are merely words added unto Father Yahweh's inspired word and in turn taking away from His inspired word.

I don't have to prove anything. The church has been Trinitarian for 2000 years, your religion is less than 200 years old. Don't quote irrelevant scripture at me. Maybe you can do better at translating the scripture?

συμβεβηκεν δε αυτοις το της αληθους παροιμιας κυων επιστρεψας επι το ιδιον εξεραμα

Or do you, as with the great majority of people, have to rely on the translation of someone else. Jesus said he would build his church upon the rock and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. If you would be so kind as to show me your church, any time between 90 AD and 1830, when the first anti-Trinitarian religions began in the U.S.

Here are eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, that are unique. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, etc., with respect to believers. For example, #2, believers are saved by, the kindness and love of God our Saviour, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy, Ghost, shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three.

(1.) 2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

(2.) Tit 3:4[/color] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.
The Gospels and Acts
Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,