Can anyone walk away from their Salvation?

Rick,
Please show me exactly where they are fanciful and illogical. Anyone can make and assertion and that is what you have done with this kind of statement.

Did Jesus mean what he said when he said, "The one who endures to the end will be saved" (John 10:22)? Or was Jesus engaging in saying something that was fanciful and illogical?

That was a very powerful video, I went to youtube and favorited it. Thanks.


OzSpen,

From what I've read of your posts they are quite true Scripture. It's a shame that some are misunderstanding your posts.
Keep on in the truth.

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I agree with the video but it doesn't do a lot to help people understand what they need to do. Anyone watching it can say, "Yes, I do that which what he is saying." But many of these are the people that are lacking in faith.

Ok,...
The bible gives people that understanding too. Don't judge a doctrine by how people adhere to it. The problem is with the people, not the doctrine. I have 54 years of Christian experience, and I've learned in my experience that a person's experience can be a limited place to form an opinion from. Pelagius made the same mistake when considering predestination & The Fall.

It is illogical to judge a doctrine by the behavior of the people who profess to hold it. If the source weren't so solidly scriptural, it would be logical to assess the thinking in terms of it's dysfunctional architecture - the foundation of which would be a vain imagination of the flesh.

The thinking about OSAS you describe would be the perspective from the flesh only - the part of us that loves sin. The indwelling Spirit of God gives people the understanding that gratitude is the most rewarding response to the eternal security of salvation. Sinning isn't being grateful. Taking grace for granted doesn't give lasting or deep satisfaction.

Sorry, but your opinion & experience aren't enough to persuade me that the eternal security of a believer is ever in jeapordy. No man, including ourselves, can snatch us from the hand of Jesus, to whom we are given.

Yeah, me too, except I see that as descriptive without being causitive because as we should know, salvation is not a reward, it is a gift of mercy - an undeserved gift, not a reward for anything, otherwise it is merit, not mercy; reward, not grace.
Well, then,... you don't know how to deduce implicications of your 'plainly' erroneous assertions.
Of course it would be obviously wrong to explicitly state it, but it is inferred when you describe salvation as a reward for obediance (a fruit of The Spirit)
Your writings are fanciful and illogical. I didn't want to say it that way, but I'm hoping your own choice of words will have some impact.
Do you believe that what people say has implications?
I believe in showing people the folly of their turning grace into payment due, mercy into merit.

Was Jesus simply descibing a way to identify one of the elect or was He holding salvation out as a carrot on a stick to lead us (by a will assumed to be able to discern or desire the carrot)?
1Cor2:14 explains why preaching is foolishness to the perishing - because it only makes sense if you're already saved - inswelt by the only Spirit than can understand the things of the spirit.


That is basicaly why I said your assertions were fanciful & illogical.
They contradict scriptural truths, that's all.

What is it exactly that they are misunderstanding?

Simply put, this here:

What I bolded above really stood out as Scripturally illogical.

I want you to read this from Jesus after His parable of the Good Soil.

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

First, I'll point out that He said anyone, not the elect, not the condemned, but ANYONE. To add anything more would be to add to Scripture, which according to Scripture, is condemnable.
Just like in John 3:16, He said, "WHOSOEVER believes in Him", but you keep saying "The elect believes in Him... the rest of you... there is no hope, sorry you had to sit through my preaching. Go home, eat and drink, for tomorrow you die."

Second, just showing that people who accept the message can still fall away.

"Oh they were never saved to begin with then."
Yeah... right. For that moment they remained in the faith they were.

However, preaching... only for the elect? I really can't see that because if that were so then preaching is useless. They are the elect! Why receive what they already have?
They should be out being something that can only exist where there is notsuch thing as pre-destined elect of God...

Fishers of men. Not fishers of the elect, fishers of men.

1 Tim. 4:10
that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

Why be a fisher if you already have the catch? Makes no sense.
Why tell the parable of the lost sheep if a sheep cannot stray? Makes no sense.
Why warn people not to trust in another Gospel if they cannot fall away? Makes no sense.

This whole idea that a saved person CANNOT turn away is outrageous. If that were true, then the church has absolutely no mission on Earth. None whatsoever.

Our mission is to go into all the earth and make disciples of ALL THE NATIONS. You cannot at all add in there that it is only for the elect, because it does not say that.

One last thing I'll say.

In Matthew 24:9-11 says,
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

How can this be possible? If you are saying that once saved always saved, then please, be my guest and tell these poor people who turned away from their faith (meaning they were once IN the faith), and that those who are deceived (why would that matter if they were doomed to hell anyways?) that they were never saved to begin with, and God meant for them to go to hell.
Tell them how this all merciful God meant to kill them off in the end, their lives were in vain, they never had any hope in Christ or any other savior for that matter.

Salvation for the elect only? I'm sorry that's not good news (Gospel), that's horrible news.

And need I remind you also that in the book of Revelations, 2 churches were warned by Jesus Himself to change their ways or their lampstand would be removed. If you study history, you'll see they were removed. Why warn them personally if He meant for them to be condemned anyways?
"Oh they were never saved to begin with."

Tell that to Jesus, would have spared Him writing them 2 letters of warning to a John 3:18 crowd.

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He didn't say they understood it. It's an entirely different point He's making. In fact, He pointed out they didn't understand it!:"19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it,... "
[/quote]

I want you to read it again with your eyes to see & your ears to hear open.
And then read this:

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
So what you have described as Scripturaly illogical isn't illogical at all.
What IS illogical is the idea that an unsaved person can make sense of, and hence make a "free" informed decision about, anything spiritual especialy salvation & sin.
Only in your vain imagination. I say no such thing. Never have. You lied, or you clumsily & offensively have suggestied I implied these things, because I have never said anything of the sort. I would report you for it, but then I would have to stop talking to you and I don't think there isn't any hope for you, but your not making it easy. (lol) THe mods don't like it when you both reply & report.

Well, thank God scripture doesn't hinge salvation on our approval of it. What they fell away from in that parable, was the message itself, not their belief in it because if they realy believed in it, trouble & persecution wouldn't have caused them to fall, they would have persevered until the end, like the other scripture that was confused for a cause/effect statement instead of the descriptive statement it was.

That is a heinous idea of salvation.
God does not repent of His gifts. Salvation is not a reward for belief, it is the cause of belief. You have been taught to read scripture backwards.

They only have it in God's determinate council - His planned intent, and they don't actualy receive it until God decides the time is right. Until then, preaching is foolishness - not that it doesn't make any sense at all, but that they cannot grasap it spiritualy. They use it to gratify a religious spirit that helps them see themselves as having some redeeming aspect - usualy freedom of will, and they then believe they can discern & desire spiritual things, but they only decieve themselves and others like them; those that are spiritualy blind to the fact their salvation is all God's doing & none of their own. Those who believe they have the power to choose & maintain a faith that can only be God-given, and that in so doing, they will have earned what they've already been freely given.
Madness.

How do the fishermen already have the catch?
Makes no sense to suggest that they do.
Sheep CAN stray - that is what OSAS is about! "Some people" make it out to be license to stray. Sheep don't become goats, and that is what you are suggesting when you equate "lost" with "unsaved". The prodigal son fell away from his father's good life, but he remained a son, nonetheless.
I never said they couldn't fall away. I said they couldn't lose their salvation.

You're equating it with losing salvation is hilarious folly. There. Now you're outraged, & I'm laughing hystericaly. Great.

It has no business selling a gospel of works, that's for sure.

I didn't add it, it is obviously only for the elect because they're the only ones who ever make sense of it, & so believe. Your mission is to know what you're talking about before you go sowing seeds of another gospel, namely works, because that is what you're unknowingly doing.

I'd have to be an idiot to say or believe that. I think you're more suited to the task.

Why should I care? If you've decided you know where they're going, and God forbid we should question your impeccable judgement, then it is your responsibility to make them aware of whatever it is you think you know, not me. The Great Commission wasn't a general command to all believers, btw.

Only if you don't know the scriptures. It's actualy a great relief to know God is control, not some scripturaly stillborn idea of free will.

It is part of the predeastination package, Apparently we aren't all expected to be as literaly perfect in our corruptible flesh as He was.


Forget letters. He wouldn't have bothered dying for someone His Father didn't place "in Him" before creation. He didn't pay for sins that are being paid for by people in Hell. He paid for sins that don't ger paid for by people He saves.

You take omnipotence and turn it into sentimental impotence. You take omniciesnce and turn it into selective clairvoyance.
Gos foreknew who would believe because He foreknew who He would create to have wrath upon & dishonor, as well as who He made to have mercy on & adopt. You make His sacrifice into an act that didn't save anyone, it only made it possible to save yourself by choosing to believe and maintaining obediance. Pure works.
That's why the churches fail.

Read the parable of the sower to see who "walks away," and it's not those who have the root (Holy Spirit). No one can snatch them out of God's hand because the root supports them, not the other way around as Romans 11:16-18 explains.

But those who have no root were never born again to begin with because the root is the Holy Spirit. So they honor Jesus with their lips, but not their hearts, and thus have no root to support them. "If the root is holy, then so are the branches." Conversely, if the root is not holy (not the Holy Spirit), then neither can the branches be. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and neither can a bad tree bear good fruit." Oh, the fruit on a bad tree might look enticing, nourishing and scrumptious but if the tree is not healthy, then neither can the fruit be no matter how good it looks on the outside.

So once again, reconcile the whole bible together, not take verses out of context with the rest of the bible which is what you are doing. that's why your interpretation contradicts; John 10:28, Romans 8:1, Romans 5:8-9, Romans 8:38 1 Corinthians 1:8, Jude 24, Philippians 1:6, & 2:13, 1 John 3:8, 1 John 5:18, and many, many more verses so it's incorrect.

By the way, I am no longer posting on this forum. I merely replied to a pm that I got. So suffice it to say; "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit." That's true because our Lord says it's true. And a good tree has a good root (the HS). Take care.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The Pharisees and Sadducees hated Jesus because he challenged their salvation by the law. Israel was saved, which means delivered from bondage, and Paul used them as an example and warning to us...
Hebrews (summary of those verses)

3:7-8 Harden not your heart to provoke God.
3:10 They erred in their heart and didn’t know his ways.
3:12 Evil heart of unbelief and departed from God.
3:13 Hardened in deceit and sinned.
3:15 Harden not your hearts to provoke God.
3:17 They sinned and died in the wilderness.
3:18-19 They entered not into his rest because unbelief.
4:1 Let us fear lest we come short of entering into his rest.
4:6 Entered not in because unbelief
4:7 If you hear his voice harden not your hearts.

The main thing we see here is to guard our heart, this is our responsibility. GOD IS LOVE. His love can overcome. Paul wrote to the Romans...

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

However, we cannot use any of these in judgment as an excuse. For example, you can get angry at me but you made yourself angry by what you allowed in your heart.

Only if we let sin rule, and this comes with unbelief, that God will judge guilty as with the unbelievers.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Unbelief can open the door to sin and sin brings judgment read on.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If once saved always saved is true, then what happened to Judas? The apostle saw miracles and did miracles. Hand picked by Jesus, how did he become lost? His heart was not right and love of money was his motive.

Philippians 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Believers can become enemies of the cross because the world’s lure of fame fortune is strong.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Believers can turn away from the holy commandment and they can become worse than what they were in the beginning. It would have been better that they didn’t know this truth. Peter you are not very nice how can you write that? Maybe we should look at what Paul wrote to his son Timothy.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Paul said to Timothy that some will depart from the faith (believers) give themselves to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and If I preach devils doctrines can I be saved?

My conscience is then fried because I departed from the faith and its my fault not Gods. We need to teach the apostles doctrine to save ourself and others to be saved (continue was the key word).

Lets turn to Philippians

3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Again Paul is concerned about people whose end is destruction, are they not saved.

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
[4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Who is James writing to here? Who is Ye? People who are friends of God but they also are friends with the world. He calls them adulteresses and adulterers and we know their end.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

This is just clear and simple to understand but you still want more proof.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul feared being castaway or shipwrecked from God he feared that his enemy the flesh should rule and destroy his end. Lets look at a parable on this.

Luke 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
[45] But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
[46] The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Jesus tells of this parable about a servant who was left to rule over all his master had. Jesus warns us how this man has said in his heart I will rule my way and forget about what I was told and will party. Notice what happens to the servant he is treated now as unbeliever.

If one becomes wayward and dies in that backslidden state, will this person be saved? The answer is no.

However, If one repents and genuinely desires to turn away from sin and toward Jesus to reconcile and to live for Him, we read:

"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found..." (Luke 15:24)

God bless.

Being born again is different than being saved. We will all come to the knowledge of the truth. The world will be saved.


2Cr 5:19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




Just not all at once.


Jhn 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



Here is a scripture that shows this to be true.


1Ti 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11These things command and teach.

We see here Paul stating that Jesus is the Saviour of all men. Then he says "specially of those that believe".
And why "especially"? Because we know Him and therefore we are able to partake of the great promises because those who are not born again don't know of the promises and therefore cannot partake. This is "receiving the kingdom".


2Pe 1:4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.



The scriptures that speak of "choosing", this is what we are choosing, righteousness


kat

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