To be completely honest with you, you'd be highly surprised at how many people I've heard say, "I'd rather spend eternity in hell rather than with the tyrant of a God the Old Testament describes". Saying that whole-heartedly believing in God's existence.
I believe it to be a pride issue, a lack of humility. It's crazy, I know, but people really will reject Heaven.
However, there is also the age old typical human-being who just can't see why God is better than say... random example, a sexual orgasm, or living a rich care-free lifestyle now rather than placing hope in a Heavenly home.
It's very common (at least with me) to hear someone choosing hell over Heaven, and a lot of times, it's not that they necessarily say, "Hell would be so much nicer..." it's just that they enjoy their sin more than God, and that is their choice of hell over Heaven.
"I believe God would want me to be happy, so I'm going to continue to have sex outside of marriage, because we're in love".
In a non-evident way, they are literally saying, "I am choosing not to follow the Word of God and have therefore chosen hell for myself."
I've been reading the posts up to this point, and it seems that Yarddog and OzSpen and I share the same beliefs, and I can assure you it is not a works-based Salvation.
The Bible does say that those who remain in Christ shall receive the resurrection in eternal life, but I think it's important to note that 'remain' is a verb, as well as our title 'Christian'.
Christianity is a verb based lifestyle, to 'follow Christ' or to be 'like Christ', it is all in how you 'live' your life, how you talk, walk, live, and serve. All verbs.
James 2 records that faith without works (or deeds, depending on the translation) is dead/nothing/meaningless.
It's not that we work to maintain our Salvation, rather that it is our Salvation that influences us to work (or do good deeds).
So with that said, I still hold to the belief that a person can walk away from Salvation, and it happens when they choose not to live the Christian life-style, or constantly disobey God's Word or commands, or when they just give up all together because it's either too hard for them, or some other doctrine comes along that convinces them to turn away.
Which was another warning Paul gave in Gal. 1, that there will be other doctrines, or counterfeit gospels, but he warns (knowing full well that a Christian CAN be turned away, otherwise the warning in Gal. 1 wouldn't be there) that if anyone comes teaching a false gospel, the truth is not in them and they should be accursed.
2 Corinthians 4:4 says; "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Those are true statements. So the atheists or unbelievers who claim they'd rather go to hell than heaven are merely saying that to show their hatred of God. If you ask them if they believe in heaven and hell, hands-down, they'll all say no.
2 Corinthians 4:4 says; "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Those are true statements. So the atheists or unbelievers who claim they'd rather go to hell than heaven are merely saying that to show their hatred of God. If you ask them if they believe in heaven and hell, hands-down, they'll all say no.
Hello peace4ever,
Why have you ignored my post #31?
Also, why do you ignore scripture which doesn't fit your theology?
2 Corinthians 4:4 says; "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
Those are true statements. So the atheists or unbelievers who claim they'd rather go to hell than heaven are merely saying that to show their hatred of God. If you ask them if they believe in heaven and hell, hands-down, they'll all say no.
So you're saying that the people that I know who believe in God are atheists? How do you come to this conclusion?
They aren't unbelievers, they just don't accept Him.
Romans 1 talks about 'haters of God'. That doesn't mean they are in disbelief, they are not atheists... how can one hate a God they don't believe in?
Look at vs. 21, "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."
More Biblical evidence of believers who reject.
Look at what you are saying, you are claiming that these people are saying, "There is no God, and I hate Him".
Do you see the contradiction?
You can't make the statement, "If you ask them if they believe in heaven and hell, hands-down, they'll all say no." Because they do believe, the people I'm referring to anyways, but it seems you don't believe in believers who reject. They exist, more than you know.
I think if many of us would stop being so religious and start being more truthful, we could all admit that there are things in the Bible we don't agree with. People who are true Christians look past those things and claim, "God is God, He must know better than me" but then there are others that claim, "I don't want to serve that God."
Don't ever forget that the Bible says that no man is perfect, and all have sinned. In fact, all have been born into sin. But nevertheless, we sinners still seek after God. What is it that leads a sinner to Christ? The guidance of the Holy Spirit, yes, but the Holy Spirit is not in that person before they accept Christ.
We mustn't ignore Paul's warnings.
This isn't just about good theology, it's about the reality of situations. To make statements like, "They were never saved to begin with" isn't for a human being to say. It's only God's place to say.
We can take certain verses here and there out of the Bible to back what we say, but is that isagesis or exegesis?
Peace4ever, I want to test your 'theology'. Does the Bible state anywhere that God hates sinners and also states that He loves them?
I'm just curious at your response.
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Last edited by BrotherAtArms; 12th June 2009 at 11:11 AM.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and that is a fact.
Looks can be deceiving. What you think is a good tree may not be what it appears to be. Do not judge by outward appearances.
Exactly.
Many atheists, even cults support the homeless, care for others, even love. These are good fruits, but as stated above, looks can be deceiving.
Is the woman in my church who runs the food-bank but also gossips about the pastor behind his back and sews discord every week really a good tree bearing bad fruit, or is she a bad tree bearing good fruit? Is she just bad altogether, despite her good deeds? Is she just good altogether with some issues?
Again, only God knows.
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Last edited by BrotherAtArms; 12th June 2009 at 11:17 AM.
I think if many of us would stop being so religious and start being more truthful, we could all admit that there are things in the Bible we don't agree with.
What gives you the right to disagree with what God has said? This sounds like you have a low view of the authority of Scripture. Then you say this:
Don't ever forget that the Bible says that no man is perfect, and all have sinned.
How do you know that that is true? You seem to want to pick and choose what you believe in the Bible.
What gives you the right to disagree with what God has said? This sounds like you have a low view of the authority of Scripture. Then you say this:
How do you know that that is true? You seem to want to pick and choose what you believe in the Bible.
Whoa, bro, huge misunderstanding here.
Let me go through this in as much detail as I can.
First I think that it's important to take what I said in FULL context, just like the Bible, we need to see the full context.
You left this part out, or maybe didn't see it, either way:
I think if many of us would stop being so religious and start being more truthful, we could all admit that there are things in the Bible we don't agree with. People who are true Christians look past those things and claim, "God is God, He must know better than me" but then there are others that claim, "I don't want to serve that God."
That is, to look past the fact that they disagree with them and still submit.
Nothing gives me the right to disagree with what God has said... I never said I did have the right. I'm just stating a fact... I don't like some of the things the Bible says, but the truth is that I have a VERY HIGH view of the authority of Scripture. That's why despite my disagreeing some things, I still obey it and trust that God knows best.
Francis Chan once said that when you break a law, you are literally saying that you think that law shouldn't apply to you.
Same applies to when we sin.
How do you know that that is true? You seem to want to pick and choose what you believe in the Bible.
I know it is true because the Bible says it is true, and I believe that the Bible is the authoritative written word of God Almighty.
I don't pick and choose anything, I believe the whole Bible 100%.
Where did you get that belief about me? So far I have done nothing but agree with every one of your posts 100%.
Then I make a statement that if taken wrongly spawns some kind of disagreement? Read my statement again very carefully.
My point was that when I read the Bible and see (for example) that when one man sinned, God had his entire family put to death. Wife, kids, all his animals, everything.
I'm being honest, you're a Christian, right? You like honesty? Here it is, raw as can be, probably more truth than most can handle if they're too religious (which I'm not accusing you to be, I just think you've misunderstood my words) I don't like that God had that done.
I would have spared everyone but that man, BUTthat's when I say, "You know what, I'm not God, so He must know what He's doing."
Please understand what I'm saying, I have no quarrel with you, I just think you have misunderstood what I said.
I'm for the Bible, not against it, even the parts I'm not crazy about, I still believe God knows best.
I mean let's take a look at hell.
Do you like hell?
Meet the nicest atheist you'd ever meet. Incredibly nice, loves people, gives to charities, wonderful person, but doesn't believe in God.
That alone makes hell their eternal home upon death.
Do you like that? I don't. I don't desire hell for anyone.
But that's when I have to say that God has a reason for them going to hell, and I don't know it. I don't like that they will end up in hell, I'd prefer that God exposes Himself to them and helps them for the rest of eternity, but that's not God's plan.
John 3:18 says that if anyone rejects Christ as the Son of God, then they stand condemned already. I don't like that, but I understand that it must be done, because that is God's law, His order, and I must, and DO submit to that.
Do you like that long-suffering is one of the fruits of the Spirit? I mean suffering is bad enough, but long suffering?
I'd much rather not suffer, let alone suffer for a long time, but if that's a fruit of the Spirit that pleases God, I'll do it for Him... why? Same reason Jesus died on a cross... love.
Remember, Jesus wanted to do it another way, but He still did it. Why can't I do the same? Why can't I be like my Jesus? It doesn't mean I'm rejecting Scripture, just means I wish sometimes there was another way, but like Jesus said, "Not my will, but Your will be done."
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Last edited by BrotherAtArms; 12th June 2009 at 08:38 PM.
Nothing gives me the right to disagree with what God has said... I never said I did have the right. I'm just stating a fact... I don't like some of the things the Bible says, but the truth is that I have a VERY HIGH view of the authority of Scripture. That's why despite my disagreeing some things, I still obey it and trust that God knows best.
Thank you so much for that clarification. I see what you mean now. Even though God authoritatively states it in his Word, in our human thinking we don't always like what God says. I hear what you are saying.
In an earlier post you wrote:
Peace4ever, I want to test your 'theology'. Does the Bible state anywhere that God hates sinners and also states that He loves them?
I'm just curious at your response.
I’m a counselling manager and family therapist for a national counselling agency. I have hate for some of the behaviour and some of the people I see. I hate the sexual abuser, family abuser, and those who selfishly commit suicide and leave behind some devastated people. Yet I love and have compassion on these people to the extent that I want to be there for them to help them work through the issues (I can’t do that for those who commit suicide, but I’m there for their families).
I don’t have any difficulty in understanding my hate and love for the same person. We know that God does “hate all evil doers” (Ps. 5:5) and God’s “soul hates the wicked” (Ps. 11:5) but “God so loved the world . . .” (John 3:16). Why should hate and love not be in the nature of God?
God’s relationship to sin and sinners is seen in two OT passages where God hates sinful Israel (Hosea 9:15 & Jeremiah 12:8).
Hosea 9:15: “"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all their leaders are rebellious.” Jeremiah 12:8: “My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her.”
The wicked also hate God (see Ex. 20:5; Deut. 7:10) and hate the righteous (Ps. 18:40; 69:4; Prov. 29:10). So God hates those who hate Him.
God’s hating Israel at certain times and God’s hating the wicked are not examples of contradiction or inconsistency, but God’s reaction to wickedness is based on His unchanging nature. God cannot tolerate certain things and sin is one of them. As part of His holy nature, God is opposed to all sinful actions and thoughts, and His language is that he “hates” sins and sinners.
Since love and hate towards the same person are possible for human beings who are made in the image of God, it should not be surprising that God hates sinners and sins, but loves the world so much that he sent Jesus to die for the people He hates and loves.
Peace4ever, I want to test your 'theology'. Does the Bible state anywhere that God hates sinners and also states that He loves them?
I'm just curious at your response.
It's all in the bible, so I'll let you look up and read scripture. Read; Romans 9:11-25, and John 3;16-18, and put them together. After you have put them together to make them agree with each other, then we can discuss it.
I thought that our discussion about God's hate and love of sinners could be bolstered by these comments from W. S. Plumer's extensive commentary on Psalm 5:5:
There will be no diversity of judgment on this matter in the last day. All sin is in its own nature malignant and mischievous. Its natural tendency is to ruin and wretchedness. It would produce more misery on earth than it does, were it not for the restraints put upon it by the Lord. All sin is cruelty to one's soul, to one's race, to a bleeding Saviour. All sin is proud and insolent. It affects independence of God. It swells and struts. It exalts itself against God. It is fond of high looks and proud imaginations. It trades in self-conceit, self-deception and fearful presumption. All sin is utterly opposed to God. As fire and water resist each other, as light and darkness are utterly diverse, so God resists the proud. His nature is wholly opposed to it. He cannot cease to abhor it, without ceasing to be God. No creature has any adequate conception of the evil of sin. None but God comprehends it. Because it is so vile, those who love it shall not stand in God's sight. . . Thouhatest all workers of iniquity. Those do greatly slander God, who teach that he will punish sin only because it is opposed to his law or his will, and not because it is opposed to his infinite, eternal, unchangeable rectitude. So repugnant to God's nature is iniquity, that he would not save even his elect, except in a way that should fully and forever put away both the guilt and stain of sin, and bring all conceivable odium on transgression. God would not even spare his Son, when he stood in the place of sinners, lest he might seem to spare sin. Could he cease to hate it, he would cease to be worthy of love and confidence. Nor is it merely some forms of sin that God abhors, but he hates all workers of iniquity (W.S. Plumer 1975, Psalms, The Banner of Truth Trust, Edinburgh, pp. 80-81)
Thank you so much for that clarification. I see what you mean now. Even though God authoritatively states it in his Word, in our human thinking we don't always like what God says. I hear what you are saying.
I'm glad
It's all in the bible, so I'll let you look up and read scripture.
EDIT: Answer is explained later on.
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