Can anyone walk away from their Salvation?

Yarddog · #31 10th June 2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by peace4ever

Why would anyone choose hell over heaven if he knows that heaven exists? So your interpretation doesn't even make sense!

I agree that it doesn't make sense but that is exactly what scripture says. Why would Satan and the angels turn away from God when they were already in heaven? They knew far better than we do who God is.

If you don't like the interpretation of the majority of Christianity, take those verses and show your interpretation.

Sorry but again, I already reconciled that with other scripture which you either didn't read or completely ignored. But you haven't reconciled that with any of the verses I quoted including: Romans 8:1, 8:38, John 10:28, Jude 24 1 Corinthians 1:8, most of Galatians and most of the NT!

Didn't you even read what I provided or did you just ignore it. None of what you provided has anything to do with a Christian who chooses to walk away from Christ.

But since you don't appear to want to reconcile scipture together then you don't need the cross since you claim that your salvation is by works, not by Christ's sacrifice for our sins.

Where did you read that? Maybe that is the problem, you can see only what you want to see and not the context.

That means that you'll be up a creek without a paddle on judgment day since if you stumble just once, you are guilty of breaking the whole law as James 2:10 tells us.

I am not under the Mosaic Law, I am under the law of the Spirit. Where this other nonsense is coming from, I don't know.

And since none of us is as sinless as God, nor ever can be, then I'm afraid your fate doesn't look very good right now.

Thank goodness that Jesus knows the scripture better than you do. He is my salvation.

But that's what happens when someone wants to make God contradict himself.

You must be speaking of yourself since your testimony is the one that contradicts what is written. Reconcile the verses I gave you or show me where you have. I've already shown where you misinterpret the verses you gave. Context, context, context.

There is thus, nothing more anyone can do for you until you understand that what makes us blameless is Christ's blood, not our sinless nature.

I already know that and have been washed by the blood of Christ and have been baptized in God's Holy Spirit. I have also picked up my cross and carry it with me.

That's what it means to come Jesus for rest from our own work.

Without Jesus I am nothing.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit and that is a fact. So I'm not even going to converse with you until you reconcile all scripture together.

Looks can be deceiving. What you think is a good tree may not be what it appears to be. Do not judge by outward appearances.

Now since we've dealt with all your rhetoric in that post, do you care to actually say something which backs up your misinterpretation of scripture?

OzSpen · #32 10th June 2009, 05:48 PM

peace4ever,

No one chooses or seeks God of his own free will. God does the choosing by giving His Holy Spirit to those to whom it pleases Him.

You err in not reading all of Scripture. These verses refute your view:

1 Chronicles 28:9, “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” (ESV)

Psalm 22:26, “The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever!"

Isaiah 55:6, “"Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near.”

Jeremiah 29:13, “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.”

Matt. 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

Matt. 7:7, “"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”

Heb 11:6. “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

And there are other verses to support the fact that it is possible for people to seek the Lord, and the Lord commands human beings to seek Him.

Elsa · #33 10th June 2009, 06:41 PM

Green Wolverine wrote back on the first page of this thread:

Sadly, I know what you mean about being concerned that certain are truly saved based on their lives. I had a friend die recently who I'm 99.99% certain wasn't saved in spite of claiming to be a Christian her whole life. Some of the things she told me made my blood run cold.

Terribly as it may sound to say it, I'm sure she was never saved. She grew up in a Christian home, went to Christian school, was a long-time church member but there was no holiness about her which is a cardinal mark of a Christian.

The churches are absolutely full of such people. When times get tough and being a Christian opens us up for active persecution [which I believe is coming], we'll see all the 'goats' desert the church.

(Emphasized words mine) __________________

We can strongly suspect if someone is not saved, but this not for us to know for certain. We must be careful when making absolute statements like "I know so-an-so is in Heaven/Hell." Only God is all-seeing and all-knowing. Yes, we might have an idea of someone's life's outcome, especially due to their fruit (what they produce), but God is far more merciful than one might think. Even one of the thieves on the cross was saved as he was dying:

Luke 23:39-43

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

peace4ever · #34 10th June 2009, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by OzSpen

peace4ever,
You err in not reading all of Scripture. These verses refute your view:

1 Chronicles 28:9, “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.” (ESV)

Psalm 22:26, “The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever!"

Isaiah 55:6, “"Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near.”

Jeremiah 29:13, “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.”

Matt. 6:33, “But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

Matt. 7:7, “"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”

Heb 11:6. “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

And there are other verses to support the fact that it is possible for people to seek the Lord, and the Lord commands human beings to seek Him.

Since you don't appear to read people's posts, I'll make it simple for you and ask you a question;

What part of man's nature seeks God? His sinful nature? Or the Holy Spirit inside him that comes from God?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the sinful nature because as Romans 5:8 explains, the sinful nature cannot please God. The sinful nature resists God. Therefore, it's the Holy Spirit that led those people in the verses you quoted to seek God, not their sinful nature. That means, God is determining man's steps as Proverbs 16:9 and Jeremiah 10:23 explain. That reconciles the whole bible together.

So again, you need to start reading the whole bible instead of the few verses you've quoted so you won't take God's words out of context.

OzSpen · #35 11th June 2009, 07:46 AM

peace4ever,

Since you don't appear to read people's posts, I'll make it simple for you and ask you a question;

What part of man's nature seeks God? His sinful nature? Or the Holy Spirit inside him that comes from God?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the sinful nature because as Romans 5:8 explains, the sinful nature cannot please God. The sinful nature resists God. Therefore, it's the Holy Spirit that led those people in the verses you quoted to seek God, not their sinful nature. That means, God is determining man's steps as Proverbs 16:9 and Jeremiah 10:23 explain. That reconciles the whole bible together.

So again, you need to start reading the whole bible instead of the few verses you've quoted so you won't take God's words out of context.

This kind of put down and sarcasm are not necessary on this forum.

peace4ever · #36 11th June 2009, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by OzSpen

peace4ever,

This kind of put down and sarcasm are not necessary on this forum.

It's not sarcasm. You obviously didn't know that man's sinful nature doesn't seek God or you wouldn't think that man himself chooses God. You also ignored my posts every time I explained it to you in the past. So I told you the truth in very simple terms so now you know.

BigNorsk · #37 11th June 2009, 11:00 AM

We have from scripture the clear example of Saul, the king who had God's Holy Spirit taken from him. In addition we have the plea in the Psalms toward's God pleading for him not to take his Holy Spirit from me.

Clearly one may lose the Holy Spirit after receiving the Holy Spirit.

We also have the reference to God's books that even though your name is written in them, it is indeed possible to have your name taken out. We see that for instance when Moses pleads with God to take his name out and leave those who have turned from God in there, yet God says no, he will remove those others. And we see in Revelation where God says he will never remove one group.

Not to mention at the end where we see that one can lose his portion of the tree of life (eating gives one eternal life).

God is faithful and does not abandon us. But it is pretty clear that repeatedly people have turned from God and lost their gift of salvation which they once possessed.

Marv

OzSpen · #38 11th June 2009, 06:18 PM

Peace4ever,

You obviously didn't know that man's sinful nature doesn't seek God or you wouldn't think that man himself chooses God. You also ignored my posts every time I explained it to you in the past. So I told you the truth in very simple terms so now you know.

I have provided evidence from the Scriptures to counter your views but you don't want to accept such evidence. The Scriptures are clear with this command: "Seek the Lord while he may be found" (Isa 55:6). In spite of the sinful nature, God has said that people can and do seek Him. That's Bible!

peace4ever · #39 11th June 2009, 08:32 PM

We have from scripture the clear example of Saul, the king who had God's Holy Spirit taken from him. In addition we have the plea in the Psalms toward's God pleading for him not to take his Holy Spirit from me.

Clearly one may lose the Holy Spirit after receiving the Holy Spirit.

Wrong. You need to read John 16;7 to see that the indwelling Holy Spirit after Christ died is permanent whereas in the OT, God sent the Holy Spirit at His own desire. Once someone becomes born again of the Holy Spirit, he can never be unborn again.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have needed the Counselor that Jesus described in John 16:7 if God would simply continue sending His Holy Spirit at his own discretion.

Jesus was the firstborn of the Spirit, born again Christians are his brothers and sisters as Hebrews 2:11 explains.

So again, instead of ignoring;

Jude 24
1 Corinthians 1:8
Philippians 1:6 & 2:13
Romans 8:1, it would be wise for you to believe them so you can reconcile all of scripture together instead of living in doubt about your salvation. Doubt is not faith. So you either have faith that Jesus saved you by his death on the cross or that you save yourself. I got news for you, if your faith is in yourself, then you're up a creek without a paddle on judgment day since if you stumble just once,(and we all stumble) you're guilty of breaking the whole law.

BrotherAtArms · #40 11th June 2009, 09:18 PM

Why would anyone choose hell over heaven if he knows that heaven exists?

To be completely honest with you, you'd be highly surprised at how many people I've heard say, "I'd rather spend eternity in hell rather than with the tyrant of a God the Old Testament describes". Saying that whole-heartedly believing in God's existence.
I believe it to be a pride issue, a lack of humility. It's crazy, I know, but people really will reject Heaven.

However, there is also the age old typical human-being who just can't see why God is better than say... random example, a sexual orgasm, or living a rich care-free lifestyle now rather than placing hope in a Heavenly home.

It's very common (at least with me) to hear someone choosing hell over Heaven, and a lot of times, it's not that they necessarily say, "Hell would be so much nicer..." it's just that they enjoy their sin more than God, and that is their choice of hell over Heaven.
"I believe God would want me to be happy, so I'm going to continue to have sex outside of marriage, because we're in love".
In a non-evident way, they are literally saying, "I am choosing not to follow the Word of God and have therefore chosen hell for myself."

But since you don't appear to want to reconcile scipture together then you don't need the cross since you claim that your salvation is by works, not by Christ's sacrifice for our sins.

I've been reading the posts up to this point, and it seems that Yarddog and OzSpen and I share the same beliefs, and I can assure you it is not a works-based Salvation.
The Bible does say that those who remain in Christ shall receive the resurrection in eternal life, but I think it's important to note that 'remain' is a verb, as well as our title 'Christian'.
Christianity is a verb based lifestyle, to 'follow Christ' or to be 'like Christ', it is all in how you 'live' your life, how you talk, walk, live, and serve. All verbs.
James 2 records that faith without works (or deeds, depending on the translation) is dead/nothing/meaningless.
It's not that we work to maintain our Salvation, rather that it is our Salvation that influences us to work (or do good deeds).

So with that said, I still hold to the belief that a person can walk away from Salvation, and it happens when they choose not to live the Christian life-style, or constantly disobey God's Word or commands, or when they just give up all together because it's either too hard for them, or some other doctrine comes along that convinces them to turn away.
Which was another warning Paul gave in Gal. 1, that there will be other doctrines, or counterfeit gospels, but he warns (knowing full well that a Christian CAN be turned away, otherwise the warning in Gal. 1 wouldn't be there) that if anyone comes teaching a false gospel, the truth is not in them and they should be accursed.