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  #11  
Unread 1st June 2009, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by synger View Post
I'm a little confused by your statement... are you suggesting that when women "get real selfish" (I assume by withdrawing sexual intimacy in marriage) that their husbands then have nowhere else to turn for release but to homosexual sex acts?
No. But in society in general, the selfishness of women does lead to that, in those men that might have no strength, or religion, or God, to keep them away from that. Yes, I suppose, likely many married men that got denied their needs as well.

If this is your premise, I think it's flawed in a couple of ways. First, while neither wife nor husband should deny their partner overlong, even if they do they are not forcing their partner to be unfaithful. There's a big difference between an explanation for why something is done and an excuse for it.
If one is denied food, no one is forcing them to eat away from home either, by your logic! That seems a hypocritical, and pretentious denial that sex for men is a need. If it were not a need, why would the bible forbid couples to withhold?

And secondly, if the partner will not share intimacy, I'm not seeing how that sends the "lonely" partner into homosexual acts unless there's already a tendency there.
Well, you seem to be thinking about Christians. I agree. However, even there, apparently, it is a problem for some. On the other hand, if a man simply found sex from other women in such a case, some would call him an adulterer, or some such silliness. Either way, the selfishness of the woman leads to consequences.

The only times I can think of where normally heterosexual men turn to homosexual acts are when there are no women around at all... like in prisons, in the military, or on ships. Otherwise, I'd think they would be more likely to sin with a woman rather than with another man.
When the pool of women shrinks, as it does when they get gay, or sexless, or etc...they contribute to a damaging of mankind. Remember Lot's wife! It was she that wanted back in that cesspool, not Lot.

That being said, please keep in mind that men are also able to withhold intimacy from their wives as wives are from husbands. It might be more prevalent in wives, but it's not exclusive.
It is not just the witholding in marriage we are talking here. But the system wide, education encouraged ultra selfishness of women, that also has outcroppings in other areas like killing their babies, or not wanting to ever have any, tending to fear and avoid men as a result of that instilled fear..etc.


An ongoing problem with this may be the symptom of something more deep-seated going on in the marriage, or in the wife (or husband) who is withholding intimacy.
But it doesn't matter! No withholding, period, not 'withhold if you don't get shopping often..' --for believers. But most are NOT believers anyhow. In an increasingly wicked society, the selfishness of women is a direct cause of homosexuality. Many women even prefer those men.
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  #12  
Unread 1st June 2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dad View Post
I always thought men were to blame for that sin, I now feel women are certainly also to blame! They get real selfish in an advanced sin state, and deny men. They look to themselves, and other things, and are the main cause of men having not much else to look toward but other men! I could be wrong, but that is my opinion this week. I think there is something to it.

Thoughts?
Well.....you might change your mind next week....what then....I'll think I'll wait and see if you do!!
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  #13  
Unread 1st June 2009, 10:02 AM
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I think that the selfishness of humans, both men and women, leads to sin. But I'm still not following that men turn to other men sexually because women are sinful. Say there's a man, Jack, who hasn't had any luck finding a lady-friend because the women he interacts with are selfish and sinful... which seems to be your premise. I'd think, just numbers-wise, that he'd still be MUCH more likely to find another woman who is interested in him than he is in finding a man who is. Most studies I've read about seem to put the numbers for homosexuals to about 13% of the population. That leaves a much smaller population of homosexual partners compared to the larger population of female partners, even if you factor in whatever percentage are "selfish" in your premise. So I'm not seeing how your conclusion follows that men will turn to other men.

Besides which, while women are definitely sinful creatures, just as men are, and while they may deny sexual intimacy to someone, I don't see how it follows that they are then responsible for the man's decision to find intimacy with another male. That would be like saying that the grocery store withholding food from someone is culpable in that person's decision to steal food from somewhere else.

We live in a fallen, sinful world. Yes, there are broken relationships and hurtful, selfish people all over the place (both within Christian circles and without). But if I choose to sin to satisfy my needs, then it is my own choice... my own sin...
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Many people think that the question should be: have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you invited him unreservedly into your heart? Have you completely dedicated every part of yourself and your life to him?

The trouble is that when we are truthful, the answer must always be "No." So let's ask the question a different way.

Has Jesus given everything for you? Has he dedicated his whole life to you? Has he invited you into his heart? And the answer to that is a glorious and gracious and conscious, freeing, comforting YES!

(paraphrased from Pastor Wolfmueller, Table Talk Radio)
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  #14  
Unread 1st June 2009, 10:11 AM
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Main Entry:sod·omy Pronunciation: \ˈsä-də-mē\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French sodomie, from Late Latin Sodoma Sodom; from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Genesis 19:1–11Date:13th century : anal or oral copulation with a member of the same or opposite sex ; also : copulation with an animal


Even straight people commit sodomy, it isn't limited to homosexuals.


Filthy is filthy.
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  #15  
Unread 1st June 2009, 10:14 AM
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Homosexuality is a different sin, but is a sin none the less.
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  #16  
Unread 1st June 2009, 11:09 AM
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You are correct, ronniechoate34. But in context of the OP, I think he was speaking specifically of male homosexual sodomy. Thus that is what I've been focusing on in my discussion with him.
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Many people think that the question should be: have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you invited him unreservedly into your heart? Have you completely dedicated every part of yourself and your life to him?

The trouble is that when we are truthful, the answer must always be "No." So let's ask the question a different way.

Has Jesus given everything for you? Has he dedicated his whole life to you? Has he invited you into his heart? And the answer to that is a glorious and gracious and conscious, freeing, comforting YES!

(paraphrased from Pastor Wolfmueller, Table Talk Radio)
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  #17  
Unread 1st June 2009, 12:10 PM
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the women are not responsible. if a man cant control himself to match his wives sex drive, then he is solely responsible for that. I also know that the bible says neither wife nor husband should deny each other for long periods without any agreement to do so, so its up to them both to keep the heat going if you will. but in no way is it the woman's fault if a man turns to another man, thats his own sin and on his head, blaming the woman is childish
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Unread 1st June 2009, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue sapphire View Post
Well.....you might change your mind next week....what then....I'll think I'll wait and see if you do!!
I wouldn't hold my breath. About the only thing that would change my mind is a solid bible case, outlining something I somehow missed on the topic. But, in thinking more about it, it makes more and more sense.

Why else would they not escape, if they were not also to blame? They are adults? If any had kids there, (and far from God countries tend to have a near genocidal birth rate, it seems) I doubt they would be responsible, not being adults, but maybe marred enough, that they were better off on the other side..?
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Unread 1st June 2009, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by synger View Post
I think that the selfishness of humans, both men and women, leads to sin. But I'm still not following that men turn to other men sexually because women are sinful.
It goes a bit like this. If there is no food in the kitchen, men go to another restaurant. Men of God, would tend to just either suffer, or somehow find a woman less than marriage material, I would think? Maybe the pure and spotless holy ones, with little drive might sait many many years, in a sexless state, hoping princess charming would happen along..but my best advice there, is..watch out students, altar boys, or any else that walks..!

Say there's a man, Jack, who hasn't had any luck finding a lady-friend because the women he interacts with are selfish and sinful... which seems to be your premise. I'd think, just numbers-wise, that he'd still be MUCH more likely to find another woman who is interested in him than he is in finding a man who is.
Apparently, you don't know Jack. Jack needs Jill. In some cities, that are what believers might call wicked, there is a lot of variations in the meantime that Jack would face. Women that fear babies more than death. Women that despise faith and God and men that hold to them, women that like trannies, and homos, and other women only, women that want a walking wallet, women wanting sex only occasionally with males, if ever..etc etc etc. Your concept seems more still semi godly small town country to me? I was thinking of the more sin advanced state places, like Sodom would have also been. The world thankfully isn't quite there yet. But many cities are pretty close, it seems to me.

I suppose one should leave such places, in theory..but look what it took, to drag Lot out! Easier said than done. And evemn still his wife longed after her girlfriends, and lifestyle, or whatever, and paid the price.

Most studies I've read about seem to put the numbers for homosexuals to about 13% of the population. That leaves a much smaller population of homosexual partners compared to the larger population of female partners, even if you factor in whatever percentage are "selfish" in your premise. So I'm not seeing how your conclusion follows that men will turn to other men.
True. But we are not in Sodom, so all we get is a taste here. Those numbers I suspect might not hold as true in San Fran, for example, as they might in Pittsburg? If one lived in an adbvanced sin state area, one would find more sodom like conditions. And, in those places, there are many women, of course. I find few women, personally that feel that there is anything wrong with homosexuality, rather only find not accepting it is horribly wrong! I might be in a lousy area, but many many many women it seems to me are 'bi'!

Besides which, while women are definitely sinful creatures, just as men are, and while they may deny sexual intimacy to someone, I don't see how it follows that they are then responsible for the man's decision to find intimacy with another male. That would be like saying that the grocery store withholding food from someone is culpable in that person's decision to steal food from somewhere else.
They deny a man a need, and contribute to ungodly lifestyles, and supporting them, and passing laws to protect them...etc! In many cities, there are thousands of women that converge to women only clubs, in case this is news to you. That means thousands of men are left out. God did not make 6 women for every man, it seems to me. So, if we take millions of women out of the mix, that leaves an inbalance in the system. An inbalance that contributes to men going with men. Personally, I am thankful I have never been tempted that way, I find it makes me sick to think about it. But I happen to have gsome faith, and grounding in the word. Most don't. The results..? Look around sometime.

We live in a fallen, sinful world. Yes, there are broken relationships and hurtful, selfish people all over the place (both within Christian circles and without). But if I choose to sin to satisfy my needs, then it is my own choice... my own sin...
If a man choses to rob, to feed his kids, it is also his own sin. If a man is denied needs by women, she is 100% guilty as well.
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Unread 1st June 2009, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ERice2nd View Post
the women are not responsible. if a man cant control himself to match his wives sex drive, then he is solely responsible for that.
Nonsense! Since she is not to withhold, her drive is not the big issue. Her submission in that area is. If parents don't feel like feeding their kid, tough! It is something that must be done, a need.


I also know that the bible says neither wife nor husband should deny each other for long periods without any agreement to do so, so its up to them both to keep the heat going if you will. but in no way is it the woman's fault if a man turns to another man, thats his own sin and on his head, blaming the woman is childish
It doesn't say long periods! Sorry. Nice try. The only way out of that clause for her is IF he says it is OK, for a time..say, a night or two... That is if they are believers. In the world, what I see is cheating and lying, and adultery all over the place as the normal thing. Needs cannot be denied. Like a law of nature, every action has an equal and opposite reation!

After a man is denied, and looks around, if he is in a high sin state area, there will be all sorts of mixed sex arrangments he will come upon. A woman, maybe that wants 2 men, or etc etc etc. It is a slippery slope. If one is not a believer, how would one be expected to endlessly wait for a basic need? A guy might not want to eat junk food, or fast food, but if that is all he has available..what do you think?

Of course women are responsible for homosexuality to a large degree.
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