In the twentieth century there have been a variety of positions taken by the various Eastern Orthodox Churches on the validity of Anglican orders. In 1922 the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized them as valid.[21] He wrote: "That the orthodox theologians who have scientifically examined the question have almost unanimously come to the same conclusions and have declared themselves as accepting the validity of Anglican Orders."-Wikipedia
The CCM agreement calls for an ECUSA bishop to be present at the consecration of any new Lutheran bishop, but not for a Lutheran bishop to be present at an Episcopal consecration. Recently I have learned that some Episcopal bishops have started to extend a "courtesy invitation" to the local Lutheran bishop when an Episcopal bishop is ordained. I think this is a mighty fine thing to do! Although the Lutheran bishop is not strictly needed for the Apostolic Succession, the Lutheran bishop brings the prayers, the authority, the recognition, and the blessings of thousands of fellow Christians. This "courtesy invitation" completes the circle of full communion, and emphasizes that there are no second-class partners in God's Kingdom-http://www.theistic-evolution.com/succession.html
So dose this mean that eventually the ELCA will have Apostolic Succession?
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Mark 11:24-26 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
So does this mean that eventually the ELCA will have Apostolic Succession?
Not according to most EO.
But according to them, RC (even the Pope) do not have AS, either.
By RC dictates consistently applied, RC have to agree now that Anglicans have valid orders, and ultimately ELCA as well.
Not according to most EO.
But according to them, RC (even the Pope) do not have AS, either.
By RC dictates consistently applied, RC have to agree now that Anglicans have valid orders, and ultimately ELCA as well.
So essentially they will have it but it might or might not be recognized.
__________________
Mark 11:24-26 (New International Version)
24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
So essentially they will have it but it might or might not be recognized.
The Anglican communion began ordaining women in 1944. Since then their claim to Holy Orders if it was correct at all will slowly be diminished as far as both the EO and RC are concerned.
Neither church believes that women are capable of receiving Holy Orders (note not that they are not allowed but that they are not capable).
The RC church does not accept the Apostolic Succession of the Anglicans because they changed the pray of ordination for the book of Common prayer under King Edward (I think it was the second) for the explicit purpose of denying the priesthood. There is some doubt as to whether or not it would have been valid anyway and (I believe) as to whether or not some Bishops were ordained by secular rulers in that time period.
Not according to most EO.
But according to them, RC (even the Pope) do not have AS, either.
By RC dictates consistently applied, RC have to agree now that Anglicans have valid orders, and ultimately ELCA as well.
I'm pretty sure that the Orthodox don't questions the validity of the Pope's nor any Catholics Orders
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JJM
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I'm pretty sure that the Orthodox don't questions the validity of the Pope's nor any Catholics Orders
You're wrong.
At least according to the hothead EO's so numerous here in CF. And where such was asserted, no other EO stepped in to defend the validity of RC orders.
Korah
I know certain EO's have accepted the validity of Anglican orders wven without OC being blended in, so I would have to assume that they would recognize Roman orders as well seeing as how Anglican orders stem from Roman ones. Just a theological hunch. The ordaining of women only, from what I understand, affects orders if a woman bishop were to be in the line of succession then anyone she ordained would not be valid. The Roman's took issue with the first rite of ordination in the Anglican tradition, but the one used shortly after were considered good in form, but if the lineage was broken then someone with valid orders would have to perform the rite. I think an interfaith council should be called to clarify what the Apostolic community would recognize as a whole. These debates are very draining, and with valid orders being claimed by more and more groups, often give out by Old Catholic or Smaller Easter Orthodoax churches it would be of great service to the whole of Christianity.
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Christopher
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I know certain EO's have accepted the validity of Anglican orders wven without OC being blended in, so I would have to assume that they would recognize Roman orders as well seeing as how Anglican orders stem from Roman ones. Just a theological hunch. The ordaining of women only, from what I understand, affects orders if a woman bishop were to be in the line of succession then anyone she ordained would not be valid. The Roman's took issue with the first rite of ordination in the Anglican tradition, but the one used shortly after were considered good in form, but if the lineage was broken then someone with valid orders would have to perform the rite.
It´s have to agree with everything said here; its just that I think that the bold is a big deal. Eventually there will be ordinations without a male bishop present if there already haven´t been, and in diocese headed by a female "bishop" all of the "priests and deacons" will only be ordained by her and thus even if there is a male bishop at the ordination to the epsicopate it is still invalid because the other two ordinaitons are necessary for the other one to work.
Originally Posted by Christopher1020
I think an interfaith council should be called to clarify what the Apostolic community would recognize as a whole. These debates are very draining, and with valid orders being claimed by more and more groups, often give out by Old Catholic or Smaller Easter Orthodoax churches it would be of great service to the whole of Christianity.
This sounds like a great idea. It would be really nice especially certian groups agreed to be ¨reordained¨ if soley for the sake of clarity.
Originally Posted by Korah
You're wrong.
At least according to the hothead EO's so numerous here in CF. And where such was asserted, no other EO stepped in to defend the validity of RC orders.
Korah
I´m taking a guess here and I really wish the Orthodox here would step in and let me know if I´m right, but they may be making a destinction between Valid Orders and Apostolic Succession. Basically saying that if you don´t have the true Apostolic Faith/Church you don´t "Apostolic Succession" though you may have valid sacraments. If this is not the case I think they need to question the validity of thier own sacraments seeing as in the east there were scores of heretics doing ordination that I don´t think were challenged if the ordained person became orthodox (small o is intentional).
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JJM
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Last edited by JJM; 14th June 2009 at 02:15 AM.
Reason: Active verb ought to have been passive
in diocese headed by a female "bishop" all of the "priests and deacons" will only be ordained by her and thus even if there is a male bishop at the ordination to the epsicopate it is still invalid because the other two ordinaitons are necessary for the other one to work.
Here's your answer! The answer is no regardless of the Validity of Anglican orders, because the man being ordained would need already be a validly ordained priest.
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JJM
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Well, the reunion of part of the Anglican Church is being reviewed, much more on that I don't know.
I will say - the women ordinations will not be accepted into the Church, nor the gay Bishops who are married to well...
Anyway - the Church is being careful about alot of this with so many factions doing unTraditional things.
Which is prudent.
I am wondering about the ECLA.
I need some sort of link to review the history.. because i know i fall hopelessly short on this concept.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
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