ELCA Apostolic succession

Originally Posted by JJM

I know I know I'm quoting myself

Originally Posted by JJM

in diocese headed by a female "bishop" all of the "priests and deacons" will only be ordained by her and thus even if there is a male bishop at the ordination to the epsicopate it is still invalid because the other two ordinaitons are necessary for the other one to work.

Here's your answer! The answer is no regardless of the Validity of Anglican orders, because the man being ordained would need already be a validly ordained priest.

But FWIW it is a valid consecration if only one bishop is consecrating and there are no co-consecrators. Three is the usual way of doing it, but only one is required for validity.

Originally Posted by WarriorAngel

Well, the reunion of part of the Anglican Church is being reviewed, much more on that I don't know.

I will say - the women ordinations will not be accepted into the Church, nor the gay Bishops who are married to well...
Anyway - the Church is being careful about alot of this with so many factions doing unTraditional things.
Which is prudent.

I am wondering about the ECLA.
I need some sort of link to review the history.. because i know i fall hopelessly short on this concept.

Quickly...the red part (above) of what is currently going on is not related to the blue part.

Ok, so Albion, are they a completely seperate Church who ordain women and gay Bishops?

The many pieces of the Anglican Church gets a tad confusing.
I know Church of England is a direct descendent of the ordinations....
Episcopal, Methodist and so forth are sects off the Anglican... and are not in the ordination.

Further than that - its gets really deep into uncovering a whole lot lines.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by WarriorAngel

Ok, so Albion, are they a completely seperate Church who ordain women and gay Bishops?

Well, yes. The Episcopal Church is the one I think you have in mind there. The one that petitioned the Vatican for full union was the Anglican Church in America.

The many pieces of the Anglican Church gets a tad confusing.

OK, but it's not that hard. There is the Anglican Communion with national churches around the world...and then there are the "Continuing" Anglican Churches in many countries that objected to the Liberal drift of some of the Anglican Communion provinces--most notably, The Episcopal Church. The Anglican Church in America is one of them. There are others in the USA, too.

I know Church of England is a direct descendent of the ordinations....
Episcopal, Methodist and so forth are sects off the Anglican... and are not in the ordination.

Not quite. The Episcopal Church was established here after our Independence from England to be the Anglican Church in the US, and it's a sister church of the CofE, not one that split from her.

Anglicans have national churches, like the EO. The Methodists aren't Anglican at all, although they did come from the Anglican Church as did the Congregationalists and some others.

Thanks

You're welcome. Hope this helps in some way.

One thing I would add to this is that Methodists aren't considered Anglicans because they do not maintain the Historic Episcopate or believe it to be necessary. They also hold a different view of the sacraments than Anglicans. Other than that they do have some traditions that are reminiscient of Anglicans.

__________________

"When I see a flower like this I think of God's extravagance. Nature can't help but make something beautiful."
--Bear Grylls
"A lover will always outwork a worker" --Mike Bickle

"Anglicanism has been built on three pillars: martyrs, revival, and the historic episcopate." --Archbishop Henry Orombi

Hi WA! I'm glad to see you are still on here. I haven't been posting in quite a while.

There is a lot of history behind the issue, but it is not near as complicated as it might sound:

Re: The Historic Episcopate
All Anglicans (every single church and bishop) trace their Apostolic lineage by their bishops through the ancient episcopal line that was begun in Britain in the Second Century (as well as a new line that was merged with that one in the 6th Century; via St. Augustine of Canterbury sent by Pope Gregory the Great to establish full communion with the ancient British Church) I believe that the ancient British Church traced its succession through St. Polycarp and back to St. John the Evangelist whereas Augustine of Canterbury traced his through St. Peter.

In addition all modern day Anglican Bishops trace their lines not only through the Ancient British and Pre-Reformation Roman Catholic lines, but also through contemporary Old "Utrecht" Catholic lines and contemporary Eastern Orthodox lines.

Also some Anglican Bishops trace their lineage through contemporary Roman Catholic lines and Polish National Catholic lines as well.

Re: Liberalism

Like Albion mentioned, The Anglican Communion is organized into national churches much like the Orthodox Church and similar to the various Rites of the Catholic Church:

A handfull of them are very liberal. The majority of them are conservative, and many of them are orthodox/traditional.

Re: The "Continuing Churches"

These groups are somewhat analogous to Catholic Sedavacantists: They broke ties with their official national churches when those chuches began ordaining women priests.

All of these groups were formed by schisms. In other words, they were all formed by groups of Bishops, previously consecrated in the lines of succession that I mentioned above.

Summary:

#1 All Anglican Bishops trace their lines through an unbroken line of Bishops. They could not be called Anglicans if this were not the case. The unbroken line is a historical fact, whereas whether that line actually conveys Apostolic Succession/ Authority, depends on the subjective theology of the particular church viewing that line.

#2 The Anglican Communion is organized by geographic boundaries, into "national churches" in a way that is similar to the Orthodox church. Most are somewhat conservative, although there are some national churches that are very liberal.

#3 In response to Liberalism, many bishops have schismed from their liberal "national church" and joined with other schismed bishops and formed "Continuing churches" which are theologically conservative (and do not ordain women priests).

I apologise if this sounds overly didactic. I hope that this is helpful and that it clarifies some questions that you might have.

__________________

"When I see a flower like this I think of God's extravagance. Nature can't help but make something beautiful."
--Bear Grylls
"A lover will always outwork a worker" --Mike Bickle

"Anglicanism has been built on three pillars: martyrs, revival, and the historic episcopate." --Archbishop Henry Orombi

Thanks guys.
It helped.

And I think the Sedavacantists are now in the Catholic Church again. I believe I heard this.

And moving right along - the basic understanding I am having is the 'conservative or Traditional' Anglicans will be reunitiing to Rome [and in the process of discussion], but the Liberal Churches will continue onwards as they are. [ordaining women and other unorthodox things]

I have been ernestly praying for reunification - and this was my hope for this section. To talk about things that can lead to it - to shake hands across the aisles of the Churches and pray together for the Spirit to work His miracle.

I am pretty excited.

SO what have you been up to Radixlecti?

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Originally Posted by WarriorAngel

And moving right along - the basic understanding I am having is the 'conservative or Traditional' Anglicans will be reunitiing to Rome [and in the process of discussion]

Uh, no. I understand from what you wrote earlier that you have a hard time getting a handle on Anglican matters, but no, "the conservative or traditional Anglicans" are not reuniting with Rome.

One very small jurisdiction, not affiliated with the Anglican Communion, has sought reunion on Rome's terms and is waiting to hear back. It is merely one of many conservative or traditional Anglican churches and represents a very small percentage overall.

but the Liberal Churches will continue onwards as they are. [ordaining women and other unorthodox things

Yes, there are some liberal Anglican churches.

Originally Posted by RadixLecti

One thing I would add to this is that Methodists aren't considered Anglicans because they do not maintain the Historic Episcopate or believe it to be necessary. They also hold a different view of the sacraments than Anglicans. Other than that they do have some traditions that are reminiscient of Anglicans.

Other than not having the same beliefs, polity, or worship style, they're a lot like Anglicans?

Sure, there are similarities.

I'm no expert, but here are the similarities that I have observed:

#1 Polity Both Anglicans and Methodists have an episcopal form of church government.

#2 Beliefs Wesley himself remained an Anglican priest until his death and much of what Methodists believe comes from Anglicanism, for example the Wesleyan Quadrilateral is a modified version of Richard Hooker's three tiered Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

#3 Worship The liturgy I have witnessed at Methodists churches sounds like a simplified version of the Book of Common Prayer -- Especially when they celebrate Communion.

Is it possible that there is more than one group called "Methodist" or that you might have confused them with another group like Baptists?

__________________

"When I see a flower like this I think of God's extravagance. Nature can't help but make something beautiful."
--Bear Grylls
"A lover will always outwork a worker" --Mike Bickle

"Anglicanism has been built on three pillars: martyrs, revival, and the historic episcopate." --Archbishop Henry Orombi