We were discussing the division of sinners teachings , in particular that the new covenant itself states that all those under grace do not teach those under grace, but do teach sinners [as necessary to find further members of the House of Israel [as Jesus commanded to do]... you seemed to disagree with this although I don't see how you justify disagreeing with the new covenant ... I'm sorry but I couldn't decipher your argument if there was one alongside your rather unworthy irrelevant assertions about me.
We were discussing the division of sinners teachings , in particular that the new covenant itself states that all those under grace do not teach those under grace, but do teach sinners [as necessary to find further members of the House of Israel [as Jesus commanded to do]... you seemed to disagree with this although I don't see how you justify disagreeing with the new covenant ... I'm sorry but I couldn't decipher your argument if there was one alongside your rather unworthy irrelevant assertions about me.
Were you referring to my posts or to somebody else's? Would you please make clear to whom you are referring? I'll assume you are referring to my posts.
This is your line of attack when examining Hebrews 8:11,
new covenant itself states that all those under grace do not teach those under grace, but do teach sinners [as necessary to find further members of the House of Israel
Let's examine Heb. 8:11 again: "And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord'" (ESV).
This new covenant is a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31ff.
What was the meaning of Heb. 8:11 for Hebrew Christians when the NT was written and for Christian believers living in 2009?
This we know from the first two verses of Heb. 1:1-2 that the complete revelation came in Jesus Christ, God's son. In the past God spoke to the fathers by the prophets but in these last days he has spoken by his Son.
The straight forward meaning of Heb. 8:11 in its fulfillment of the Jeremiah prophecy is that God's saving revelation is complete at last and is accessible to all people in the world, not just to the tribes of Israel and Judah. It was transmitted at first in the incomplete OT but now the complete revelation has been fixed for everyone for all time in the final canon of revelation -- BOTH OT and NT. In this completed canon of Scripture we have full and free access to the full and complete message of God.
We don't depend on people passing it on to one another verbally. We have all of God's Word and we can get it in your own hands in your own languages (except for the languages that have not been translated). By use of this completed canon of Scripture, we can test those who preach and teach. This is what I am doing with your statements about not needing teachers to teach.
It (Heb. 8:11) does not mean what you want it to mean, that we don't need teachers today. It means the exact opposite. It means that we have the final canon of Scripture and do not need to be taught by those handing down the teaching one to another.
We are taught by teachers who are given as ministry gifts of Christ to the Christian church. This has happened from the Day of Penetcost to the year 2009 and will happen beyond this date. This is confirmed by the NT in Scriptures such as I Cor. 12:28-29; Eph. 4:11; Heb. 5:12; James 3:1.
The very Book of Hebrews that we are discussing contradicts your view that we do not need teachers to teach us. According to Heb. 5:12: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food" (ESV).
So, according to this very Book of the Hebrews in NT Scripture, your doctrine is false with this kind of statement:
the new covenant itself states that all those under grace do not teach those under grace, but do teach sinners.
Would you please quit teaching your false doctrine that Christians do not need teachers to teach them? Your doctrine is false according to the Scriptures, as I have shown above.
Have you considered reading the new covenant , what God says in it, as distinct from what sinners pretend it says ?
God did indeed reject Israel because they broke His old covenant with them , but the new covenant states that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]
More than that it states that they will be the people of God, no-one else, because God says so [not because of them , they rebelled but are now given unmerited forgiveness, grace]
It amazes me that Jews do not read the new covenant in the OT [Jer 31:31-34] and Christians refuse to read the new covenant as repeated by Paul in the NT [Heb 8:8-12] ... I mean that is bizarre, since that is the way those whom Jesus takes at his return will be saved , neither Jew nor Christian can be saved in this life without grace and most do not bother to even read the contract !!!
Just four verses in OT and NT and almost no-one reads them, acknowledges them ,yet they are what salvation of the masses [Rev 7:9-10] ultimately depends upon too ... I mean that is weird, ignoring the new covenant by tradition !!!
So why not read it and take a few minutes to understand what God says , its very different than what most Christians believe and very different from what most Jews believe? Yet its not long, not hard to understand , just IGNORED by almost everyone!
The scriptural Covenant of Grace
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:
Paul says the new covenant is with the two nations into which Israel was long ago divided ... no mention of anyone else under grace!
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the Hebrews whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , proving that grace is for descendants of the two nations descended from Jacob whose ancestors broke the old covenant, NOT with some 'spiritual Israel' composed of gentiles unconnected with Israel.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
God takes this remnant descended from Jacob [Israel] to be His people and says He will be their God ... why do almost all modern Christians not believe Him?
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
God says that those under grace will NOT TEACH one another because He will put His laws in their minds and hearts Himself!
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
God says that He has completely forgiven Israel the sins of their forefathers under the old covenant , directly contradicting most modern Christianity's teachings.
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It is identical to the version given long before Jesus came by Jeremiah 31:31-34 , underlining that grace is for the remnant children of Israel named by Jesus , tribe by tribe, descended from the named sons of Jacob [Rev 7:3-8]
These FEW [literally just tens of thousands - Jude 1:14] are thus the few that find the straight narrow way in this life prior to Jesus return to take those who are saints by then [or by death, if sooner] [Matt 7:14]
What then of the MANY who go by the broad way through destruction in death?
We know that countless many are saved according to Jesus [Rev 7:9-10] , so the MANY are certainly not all lost, as much modern divided Christianity claims!
we know from Jesus that the many who go by the broad way are all resurrected from hell and judged by works :-
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
and we know when that is, AFTER the Millennium :-
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
but the countless MANY saved after [Rev 7:9-10] who went through destruction in death and resurrection from hell clearly are saved by beiing freed from sin by death - as sin's sole wages is death :-
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Freed from past sin then, countless many who go by the broad way in this life are saved by works after the Millennium [in the righteous new earth kingdom of God]:-
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness...
The FEW are translated first ,at Jesus' return, because God requires them to be the kings and priests in His kingdom, to serve the countless many [over 12 billion gentiles] later , as promised long ago to Moses :-
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Israel were never a holy nation and kingdom of priests under the old covenant , but as Paul and God say in the hew covenant, their children [remnant of their descendants] are forgiven all sins under the old covenant.
Thus Jesus is the prophesied king [Messiah, Christ] who will re-unite the two Houses of divided Israel into a holy nation of priests in God's kingdom, by means of which countless many gentiles will be redeemed by the ministry and rule of the descendants of Jacob [Israel]
Sometimes, I find debates, enlightenment, studies, arguments and listening a burden. I tried to narrow down my faith, and so, just came back to Jesus, where I started. I believed what he is the son of God and of man. He is sufficient and enough.
The great knowledge & enlightenment is following & obeying the words, commands and teachings of Jesus Christ during his 3 year ministry on Earth 2,000 years ago. Most Christians fail in this. We ramble on without regard to our lowly position and truth; to be servants & followers of Christ alone, our only Lord & savior. Few obey his commands. Jesus said broad and spacious is the road to destruction and many are those who follow it. Obeying Jesus alone is being on the narrow and straight. I hope we know this. Love to all.
Sometimes, I find debates, enlightenment, studies, arguments and listening a burden. I tried to narrow down my faith, and so, just came back to Jesus, where I started. I believed what he is the son of God and of man. He is sufficient and enough.
Jesus set certain tasks to those who follow him , not least baptism of fire [precious trial of faith to perfect love] and finding the lost House of Israel to 'awaken' the next generation of saints through teaching the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34] ...
The great knowledge & enlightenment is following & obeying the words, commands and teachings of Jesus Christ during his 3 year ministry on Earth 2,000 years ago. Most Christians fail in this. We ramble on without regard to our lowly position and truth; to be servants & followers of Christ alone, our only Lord & savior. Few obey his commands. Jesus said broad and spacious is the road to destruction and many are those who follow it. Obeying Jesus alone is being on the narrow and straight. I hope we know this. Love to all.
Jesus command to love implies exactly that one departs from sinning , few can do that without spirit baptism [John 16:13] to know all truth and so be able to defeat Satan's wiles [as Jesus did] ... thus as you say,few find that way of ceasing to be a sinner in this life before Jesus returns...
however destruction of sinners in the wrath of God at the end of this earth and heavens does not imply one cannot be saved, Paul gives a counter-example to that teaching :-
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Also is referred to as 'destruction' in scripture, so Jesus and many of the saints were destroyed , the saints to be saved through resurrection to the body and then translation to the spirit, Jesus also to be translated to spirit some time after resurrection to the body.
Equally only few go by the strait narrow way , but countless many are [later] saved [Rev 7:9-10] by Jesus' own witness ... so again that teaching seems to be mistaken...
Last edited by stranger; 8th June 2009 at 04:06 AM.
Reason: clarification of Jesus' translation without ever having sinned
Why are you teaching the false doctrine that Jesus needed to be saved?
I am not teaching anything, let alone any doctrine...
and neither did I say that Jesus needed to be saved ... you said that not me...
However Jesus was translated after his resurrection to the body , he did require that redemption to spirit [translation] of those whose love is perfect ... and that after all is the final salvation to immortality.
So you are inventing your own strawmen , that are not in what I said ... and completely missed the point of what was said on account of being so anxious to jump on something that wasn't even there ...
[So I will clarify the point above anyway , so that you can see that it makes no difference whatever to what I was actually talking about, OK?]
Last edited by stranger; 8th June 2009 at 04:10 AM.
Stranger,
It was you who taught:
You most definitely taught that Jesus was "to be saved." Your words refute your protest.
I am not seeking to teach anything my friend and I have never believed Jesus had any sin to be 'saved' from ... I apologise for the the apparent ambiguity in your eyes of what I said , I have tried to clarify it by amending the script to be more explicit , as response to your misunderstanding from my usage of words [ I regard the real salvation as translation to spirit , you apparently do not ... it is not even a major point of disagreement since it makes no difference what we think of as the timing point of salvation]
Your purpose on this Forum when discussing this topic is to correct the teaching of others through your spurious teaching of Heb. 8:11, which is contradicted by Heb. 5:12.
I have tried to make my words less ambiguous to you , I can do no more than that.
You now just make false accusations at me and assert that you know better than I why i came here ... I find that rather sad and un-Christ-like ,and ask you to stop ... there is no need to turn a simple misunderstanding that has been corrected into a deluge of mud slinging by you .. please return to friendly co-operative discussion of the scripture and stop making wild accusations ... I am not a teacher and seek to teach no-one, only to point out some interesting scriptures and discuss their implications for all of us...
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