No Creed But Christ - Restoration MovementThe forum for members of the restoration movement including Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches.
In the thread "No Creed But Christ -- Restoration Movement" there is a line saying "The Restoration Movement makes no claim to being the continuation of the original Christian church".
That's the first time I've heard of that. I was brought up in the church and was always taught that the church I belong to was the one founded by Christ Jesus. If I belong to that church and that church is the original (all others are denominations whose teachings vary from what is stated in the New Testament), it follows that I belong to a continuation of the original Christian church.
But, of course, I don't belong to the Restoration Movement. (As far as I know, it is not a formal organization with all of the trappings of an organization.) I belong to the church of Christ, the one that Christ Jesus founded. The Restoration Movement is simply an attempt by some Christians to bring would-be Christians into the church.
I hope the moderators (wow, there are more moderators than users!) don't ban me for expressing my opinion like they did a friend of mine.
I don't think I've ever met a church of Christ member who didn't think it was a part of the restoration movement. The idea behind that movement was to remove the trappings of man in religion and return to its roots in the early church; thus, while not strictly a continuation, it was attempting to become the early church in both spirit and function.
Once Christ founded his church is did not cease to exist, later to be restored. It has existed ever since he founded it. There has to be a continuence from Day One or else the church that Christ founded is weak and, being weak, is probably not the church that Christ was hoping for.
There I reduced the argument to its minimum. Christ's church is not/cannot be weak. Hence it has existed since the day He founded it.
I'm a member of that church. I don't date the church I belong to to the late 18th century. I date it to the mid-first century.
I worship in a building that has a sign in front of it that says either "Christian church" or "church of Christ". That does not make it a denomination. The sign simply says that the congregation that worships inside is a Christian congregation.
That contrasts with the sign in front of the Baptist church building down the road. It says that the congregation that worships inside is a Baptist congregation. Makes you think that it is not a Christian congregation. You would be right.
Once Christ founded his church is did not cease to exist, later to be restored.
I would agree. The Restoration Movement stands for Restoring certain Biblical Principles and Practices that had fallen out of practice within Christianity for several centuries.
It has existed ever since he founded it. There has to be a continuence from Day One or else the church that Christ founded is weak and, being weak, is probably not the church that Christ was hoping for.
While I agree that the church has existed ever since he founded it two thousand years ago, I don't think that the reason is because then the church would be weak. Since the Church actually is weak. God prefers to work through weak people, it forces us to rely on him instead of thinking we can do it on our own. We are a weak people that belong to a weak church that must lean on Christ. Even if he has to knock or hip out of socket to force us to lean on him like he did to Jacob
There I reduced the argument to its minimum. Christ's church is not/cannot be weak. Hence it has existed since the day He founded it.
I'm a member of that church. I don't date the church I belong to to the late 18th century. I date it to the mid-first century.
In the sense you are talking about most Christians regardless of whatever movement or denomination they are affiliated with would agree. Well, except for the Catholic and Orthodox Churches who say that their denoms actually literally do date back to 33 A.D.
I worship in a building that has a sign in front of it that says either "Christian church" or "church of Christ". That does not make it a denomination. The sign simply says that the congregation that worships inside is a Christian congregation.
I'm a lot more interested in the lives of the congregation as proof that it's a Christian congregation than what a sign says. Signs don't mean a thing. They certainly didn't have them in the New Testament.
That contrasts with the sign in front of the Baptist church building down the road. It says that the congregation that worships inside is a Baptist congregation. Makes you think that it is not a Christian congregation. You would be right.
So the Jews said of the Samaritans long ago. Jesus turned their world upside down when he told them the parable of the Good Samaritan though. Let us not make the same mistakes that they did. Anyone can call themselves a Christian or Christ follower with words. It's if you live and breath being a Christian or Christ follower that counts. If a fella walking out of the Baptist Church does but the fella walking out of the Christian Church down the street doesn't, well you know the answer.
So the Jews said of the Samaritans long ago. Jesus turned their world upside down when he told them the parable of the Good Samaritan though. Let us not make the same mistakes that they did. Anyone can call themselves a Christian or Christ follower with words. It's if you live and breath being a Christian or Christ follower that counts. If a fella walking out of the Baptist Church does but the fella walking out of the Christian Church down the street doesn't, well you know the answer.
The Christian is the person, regardless of which building he walks out of, who heard the Word, believed, has faith in God, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and was baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. If that is the fellow walking out of the Baptist building, he apparently is financially and emotionally supporting the Baptist doctrine instead of Christ's doctrine. Christians shouldn't do that.
Anyway, you'll find sinners walking out of all buildings.
I don't think I've ever met a church of Christ member who didn't think it was a part of the restoration movement. The idea behind that movement was to remove the trappings of man in religion and return to its roots in the early church; thus, while not strictly a continuation, it was attempting to become the early church in both spirit and function.
I attend a Cofc congregation, and even though I'm much younger, it's always been understood by those around me and by myself that the name is a representation of what we're trying to stand for: a full going back to the scripture instead of mere changing of scripture or going half-way to the original. So to support your statement, I've never met another that didn't believe that the ones who started the "Church of Christ" weren't part of the restoration movement. I guess to say that it is also a continuation wouldn't be wrong to say seeing that once you've restored something back to the original, it'd be logical to try stay original.
__________________ "Patience is not a virtue. It's a skill, and God gives us opportunities to practice it." - unknown
The Christian is the person, regardless of which building he walks out of, who heard the Word, believed, has faith in God, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and was baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. If that is the fellow walking out of the Baptist building, he apparently is financially and emotionally supporting the Baptist doctrine instead of Christ's doctrine. Christians shouldn't do that.
Anyway, you'll find sinners walking out of all buildings.
If you asked most Christians of any denomination if they "heard the Word, believed, has faith in God, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and was baptized for the forgiveness of his sins." they'd most likely say yes, and add that this is according to the teaching of their denomination (infant baptism not withstanding.) They may be incorrect (as certain baptists would be if they belonged to a church that followed traditional baptist views on Baptism as a non-salvational event.), but most people, if you asked them if they were baptized for the forgiveness of sins would say yes. It's a little hard not to since the words "Baptized for the forgiveness of sins" actually appears in the Bible.
If you asked most Christians of any denomination if they "heard the Word, believed, has faith in God, confessed that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and was baptized for the forgiveness of his sins." they'd most likely say yes, and add that this is according to the teaching of their denomination (infant baptism not withstanding.) They may be incorrect (as certain baptists would be if they belonged to a church that followed traditional baptist views on Baptism as a non-salvational event.), but most people, if you asked them if they were baptized for the forgiveness of sins would say yes. It's a little hard not to since the words "Baptized for the forgiveness of sins" actually appears in the Bible.
And most of them would be incorrect. Most of them were probably told by their parents that they had been "baptized" as babies "for the forgiveness of their sins"(!). (As you know, that is not baptism/immersion. They were sprinkled with a little "holy" water by a charlatan.) And they spend the rest of their lives erroneously believing they will go to heaven.
If a person is truly a Christian, he should be supporting congregations of other Christians and supporting the spread of the Word and obeying the great commission:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:19,20
Being a member of a denomination will not accomplish any of that. You'll simply be supporting the miseducation of people who otherwise would have become Christians. They will be the ones on Judgment Day who Christ is refering to when he says:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23
And most of them would be incorrect. Most of them were probably told by their parents that they had been "baptized" as babies "for the forgiveness of their sins"(!). (As you know, that is not baptism/immersion. They were sprinkled with a little "holy" water by a charlatan.) And they spend the rest of their lives erroneously believing they will go to heaven.
That may be. May not be. God is merciful. Do you really believe that a God who genuinely loves someone would send someone to hell who really loves and wants to serve and be with him just because they were sprinkled instead of immersed; and they didn't know any better?
If a person is truly a Christian, he should be supporting congregations of other Christians and supporting the spread of the Word and obeying the great commission:
That's what most congregations do.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:19,20
Being a member of a denomination will not accomplish any of that. You'll simply be supporting the miseducation of people who otherwise would have become Christians. They will be the ones on Judgment Day who Christ is refering to when he says:
The very thing that makes one a denomination is when one seperates themselves from other Christians. We have to be careful not to make the same mistake that so many denominations have, lest we fall into the same trap. Indeed, there are many denominations today who are less "denominational" than we are.
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23
And this passage states quite clearly what dong the will of the father is. It's feeding the hungry, helping the poor, visiting those in prison, exc. Lots of folks from all manner of denominations do that. Heck, the Catholic Church down the street does a better job of it than any other congregation in town, and I've found that's often the case most places you go.
That may be. May not be. God is merciful. Do you really believe that a God who genuinely loves someone would send someone to hell who really loves and wants to serve and be with him just because they were sprinkled instead of immersed; and they didn't know any better?
God is God. He is the creator of the universe. He does what He wants to do regardless of what we think He should do.
Given that, God has told us what He will do to unrepentant sinners who have not done His will. Yes, God is merciful, but he has also given us dominion over our lives. It's up to us whether or not we will enter heaven. God has shown us the way, but we decide whether we will follow that way.
So if God says be immersed and we instead insist upon being sprinkled, then I fully expect God to send us to Hell. He has spoken. Don't you listen?
Originally Posted by Windlord
Originally Posted by WhollyRabbit
If a person is truly a Christian, he should be supporting congregations of other Christians and supporting the spread of the Word and obeying the great commission:
That's what most congregations do.
Most congregations of Christians, yes. A Christian should support other Christians in spreading the Word and winning souls to Christ. A Christian should not be supporting denominations who do not teach the complete truth or who add manmade fabrications to the doctrine of the church.
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7:21-23
Originally Posted by Windlord
And this passage states quite clearly what dong the will of the father is. It's feeding the hungry, helping the poor, visiting those in prison, exc. Lots of folks from all manner of denominations do that. Heck, the Catholic Church down the street does a better job of it than any other congregation in town, and I've found that's often the case most places you go.
For some reason I fail to see any mention of doing good works in those couple of verses. Where to you see any reference there to "feeding the hungry, helping the poor, visiting those in prison", etc.?
Jesus is speaking of those I call pseudo-Christians, those who have not followed God's will in hearing and believing the Word, having faith in God, confessing that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, repenting of their sins and being immersed for the forgiveness of those sins.
Very few people who profess to be Christians have done all of the above and they are who Jesus is addressing in Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus is talking about people being saved and not being saved. Good works such as you list the Catholic parish down the street as doing has nothing to do with the people Jesus is referring to in Matthew 7:21-23.
Last edited by WhollyRabbit; 12th August 2009 at 09:55 PM.
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