The MW forum- A discussion for all that post here.

This thread is to discuss the present issues brough up in "The Habit of Silence" thread. I want to put forth some staff expectations regarding posting and member interaction with staff. Hopefully the following will dispell some perceptions and encourage dialogue between members and staff.

There is a fine line between refuting a post and promotion, however, I do not expect for anyone here not to refute what you know to be untrue. However. it must be done is a respectful fashion. A New Dawn copied a post and cited it as an example of how to refute here. Frankly, I have no problems with any of you refuting claims. To the Theo staff promotion is defined as actively promoting a non Christian faith. Refuting a post is not typically considered to be actively promoting a faith. UT was set up for that purpose and the SoF has been relaxed to allow for discussions that otherwise would not be possible.

Here is what the expectations of staff are:

1. All site wide rules apply.
2. No flames. If you refute a post then offer evidence to refute it. There is no need to call out, inflame, insult, or belittle anyone. In other words, address the post topic not the person.
3. Don't start call out threads. I have seen the anymosity between the Jews and the Messianics. This anymosity is fostered every time that threads or posts that belittle either side are made. Don't.
4. Report or refute. If you (general you) report a post then don't reply to it. This only forsters anger.
5. Be respectful. This applies to any poster and to the Christian faith.
6. Don't campaign against CF staff. If you have a concern you can pm me or any member of the Theo staff, or you can start a thread in the Suggestion/Complaint box forum for the reconciliation team. We do take complaints seriously but we have to have particulars.

That's it for now. I hope that answers at least some of your questions. Please let me know what you think and offer suggestions. This thread is not going to turn into a fight. I want everyone to sincerely assess your responses to add positively to this discussion. Any poster that can not be civil will have their posts reported and deleted.

__________________
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior.

From the staff's point of view, having a thread dedicated to this topic is better for a couple of reasons.

1. The other thread, I'm not sure why it was started, but it quickly devolved into flaming, arguing and complaining about staff actions. Had not staff stepped into the discussion, it would likely have been closed much earlier for other reasons.

2. The opening post of the other thread did not support what it had turned into, and since it was flamey and going off-topic anyway, it was best to close it and start a new thread about this discussion with a more directed opening post.

3. These are issues that need to be discussed for the members of this forum to move forward. And everyone needs to give input, or only the most vocal members will be heard, and we do not want to move forward with only some voices giving all the input.

__________________
You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure.

Reposted from another thread, as it should have been on this one:
what is posted AND LEFT here causes damage and has the potential to cause larger damage, when it is utter lies, mischaracterizing and misrepresenting of the Talmudic texts (which everyone knows are completely and solely Jewish). You may think that leaving these particular lies in posts on CF has no consequences beyond this microcosm of the christian world, but you are wrong. Deadly wrong.

And you can try to pass it off as simply the same type of complaint you get over the same types of issues people have within every posting group here on CF and yadda yadda, but no one here is going to be fooled -- we know better. You want us to believe that people's complaints about being told they are not proper Christians, is the same as the situation here? Do you seriously believe it? We'll believe it the day you can show us that, when people disseminate lies and accusations that falsely outline the christian scriptures about any given thing, that action has throughout the course of history had a huge hand to play in the slaughter of untold numbers of individuals, towns and communities full of your people.

The problem this forum is facing has been ongoing and began on the MJ forum itself, long ago.

The websites which are quoted by a certain poster are
1) usually without citation, which is oh so grand because it just sends people to google, and when they google the wrong spellings and nasty phrases, what do they get? Oh yes, lots and lots of mirror anti-semitic websites to corroborate the info and make it appear legitimate.
2) those websites are nothing but hate-mongering sites. Period. They're for the direct purpose of disseminating lies against the Jewish people. And what happens when people see those lies? What happens when they see the info on a site they visit like CF, and then google the info and (surprise surprise) find many sites corroborating it? Well, they usually believe it, especially if it confirms or strengthens their already-determined prejudices against Jews. And then we have people who do things like this (obviously I am drawing a parallel, not saying these men visited CF, etc.) : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo...331894.ece


And before anyone begins whining in this new thread that those of us who are posting in complaint are merely Jews who have some odd sort of "persecution complexes", consider this:

many of us who are complaining -- I think the majority, in fact -- grew up Christian, or at the very least as non-Jews.

Unless you want to say that we somehow in our German, Irish, Czech and/or Latin-American homes in which we grew up and lived our Orthodox, Catholic, protestant, evangelical and/or fundamentalist christian beliefs developed some inordinate sense of being constantly persecuted for our Jewish ethnicity and religion, and are simply over-reacting out of such -- unless you want to try to say that, well then realize that those of us who did not grow up Jewish see it exactly as our born-Jewish forum members are seeing the issues here. It's a matter of awareness and sensitivity, not a matter of having some sort of persecution complex. And we, too, are objecting to the manner in which these issues have been and continue to be handled on CF.

In a nutshell:

1) CF has routinely left up the links and the fraudulent/inflaming information even after the Jewish members have complained and clarified, and addressed the issues.
2) Leaving up the links to these sites, which are nothing but viciously anti-semitic lie sites, and leaving up the claims quoted from such sites once they have been refuted and explained, is completely and utterly irresponsible.
3) Certain posters have not shown any inclination to removing the material they've thrown up all over the messianic community forums here.
4) When Jewish members complain and address the material, and can assure the moderators that it is a mischaracterization of our texts and the sages who wrote them, or that the material is being taken out of context and they try to exlpain (which is then billed as "promotion" of another religion), or that what is cited as texts flat out do not even exist... then the reasonable thing to do is listen to the Jewish members (or do we not have standing here regarding our own texts?), and remove those links and the fraudulent -- and yes Jew-hating -- quotes.

__________________
"For my Torah observant gentile friends: In Tractate Avoda Zara 3b, our sages tell us of the END OF DAYS. 2,000 years ago our rabbis explained that near the end of days many non-Jews will start keeping commandments like Jews. They will even call themselves part of the nation of Israel. BUT, when things get tough and the world turns on Israel-they cast off of the commandments and join the world against Israel. Hmm.." Jeremy Gimpel

Psalm 103
17. But the Lord's kindness is from everlasting to everlasting, and His charity to sons of sons. 18 To those who keep His covenant and to those who remember His commandments to perform them.

Is He true to His Word? He's either faithful and true to those who fear and obey Him, or you know what you call Him.

Deut. 30

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“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
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“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
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“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


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“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
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in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
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“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
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I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
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“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
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by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

To be seriously honest, I doubt that someone posting material with a questionable translation of the Talmud on a discussion board is what leads to persecution of the Jewish people. Honestly. It is a dispute going back thousands of years. No one is dying because of what is posted here. And as I mentioned in a PM to another member here, there are millions (and millions) of Christian killed for their faith, too. 45 million (to be exact) only in the last 100 years. So, yes, I can say that it's the same thing.

What you are asking is that we not allow debate on debatable topics. Debate means that opposite points of view are held. If you seriously do not want what you believe to be debated, we will ask to have this forum closed.

__________________
You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure.

Well, congratulations. I thought sure that no one could willfully misunderstand exactly what I wrote, as I attempted to phrase it very carefully to avoid any confusion. You sure proved me wrong. So much for a reasonable discussion and attempt at understanding where we are coming from. Good work.

No one is asking for there to be no debate -- in fact we are asking for exactly the opposite -- debate with fair handed moderation, rules that apply to both sides and are applied equally, and the chance to answer malicious, lying "quotes" and out-of-context quotes without having our comments edited and removed spuriously (while the Christians' comments are left), and the fairness of having the Christian poster's links and fabricated quotes removed -- as I said above --

When Jewish members complain and address the material, and can assure the moderators that it is a mischaracterization of our texts and the sages who wrote them, or that the material is being taken out of context and they try to exlpain (which is then billed as "promotion" of another religion), or that what is cited as texts flat out do not even exist...

__________________
"For my Torah observant gentile friends: In Tractate Avoda Zara 3b, our sages tell us of the END OF DAYS. 2,000 years ago our rabbis explained that near the end of days many non-Jews will start keeping commandments like Jews. They will even call themselves part of the nation of Israel. BUT, when things get tough and the world turns on Israel-they cast off of the commandments and join the world against Israel. Hmm.." Jeremy Gimpel

Psalm 103
17. But the Lord's kindness is from everlasting to everlasting, and His charity to sons of sons. 18 To those who keep His covenant and to those who remember His commandments to perform them.

Is He true to His Word? He's either faithful and true to those who fear and obey Him, or you know what you call Him.

Deut. 30

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

No, you can't. It is not the same thing because misunderstanding, falsified verses, libelous claims and slander against Christian writings has no specific, citeable part to play whatsoever in the deaths of "millions and millions" of Christians. It does, historically and even today, of Jews. Bury your head if you like, G-d help you.

__________________
"For my Torah observant gentile friends: In Tractate Avoda Zara 3b, our sages tell us of the END OF DAYS. 2,000 years ago our rabbis explained that near the end of days many non-Jews will start keeping commandments like Jews. They will even call themselves part of the nation of Israel. BUT, when things get tough and the world turns on Israel-they cast off of the commandments and join the world against Israel. Hmm.." Jeremy Gimpel

Psalm 103
17. But the Lord's kindness is from everlasting to everlasting, and His charity to sons of sons. 18 To those who keep His covenant and to those who remember His commandments to perform them.

Is He true to His Word? He's either faithful and true to those who fear and obey Him, or you know what you call Him.

Deut. 30

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Did you not read the OP? We have absolutely no problem with the defense of what you know to be untrue. The requirements are that it be done civilly and charitably. There is no promotion of a non Christian religion when correction is debated.

We are here because both camps seem to not be able to address each other without flaming each other. It has absolutely nothing to do with persecuting any one group. I am getting tired of the death numbers and historical persecution complexes. This IS a forum. An online discussion board. There are rules that apply to all posters. ALL of them. We will not be stifling the voice of any one group (provided that there rules are followed). If anyone posts erroneous quotes from a website, then refute it. Period.

I will say this. The main contention groups here are the Jews and the Messianic Jews. Others have caused some strife but nothing compared to the calculated attacks by both of you on both of you. IF you guys can not find a solution to how to talk to each other then we will have this forum closed.

Now, how can we reach the goal of having a forum where both of you can coexist? Is it possible?

__________________
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior.

Originally Posted by ShirChadash

Well, congratulations. I thought sure that no one could willfully misunderstand exactly what I wrote, as I attempted to phrase it very carefully to avoid any confusion. You sure proved me wrong. So much for a reasonable discussion and attempt at understanding where we are coming from. Good work.

No one is asking for there to be no debate -- in fact we are asking for exactly the opposite -- debate with fair handed moderation, rules that apply to both sides and are applied equally, and the chance to answer malicious, lying "quotes" and out-of-context quotes without having our comments edited and removed spuriously (while the Christians' comments are left), and the fairness of having the Christian poster's links and fabricated quotes removed -- as I said above --

When Jewish members complain and address the material, and can assure the moderators that it is a mischaracterization of our texts and the sages who wrote them, or that the material is being taken out of context and they try to exlpain (which is then billed as "promotion" of another religion), or that what is cited as texts flat out do not even exist...

You are asking for protections we don't even give to Christians on a Christian site. Whether or not you want to hear it, everyone complains that their particular beliefs, their particular doctrines, everything involved in the history of their beliefs and teachers are maliciously misrepresented, and maliciously mischaracterized, and they are right. They are. But we do not moderate according to theology. If we did, we would be accused of being biased. Everyone must refute those mischaracterizations and misrepresentations in the discussions.

As we have stated several times in the last few days, in the recent past, and in certain forums (this being one of them), the rules have been relaxed so that you can refute what is posted and it is not considered promotion.

Originally Posted by ShirChadash

No, you can't. It is not the same thing because misunderstanding, falsified verses, libelous claims and slander against Christian writings has no specific, citeable part to play whatsoever in the deaths of "millions and millions" of Christians. It does, historically and even today, of Jews. Bury your head if you like, G-d help you.

Nothing that is written here on this forum has any specific, citable part to play in the deaths of millions and millions of Jews, either.

In both of these posts, you are seeking to lay the blame of millions of Jews on the shoulders of a few people who post here. This is an unrealistic accusation and is not helping the situation. If you can address the specific problems that are present in this forum, that would help the situation immensely.

__________________
You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure.

Nonsense. I quite specifically and carefully duplicated the exact conditions of Vis' posts, replacing the Talmudic quotes with quotes of scripture, and you guys pulled them off within a couple hours on the grounds that they were disruptive behavior. You all COULD have stated that Vis' thread was disruptive behavior as well, but NOooooooo.

Your double standard has been scientifically tested and exposed--I am shocked that not one of you realized the test when you saw it. Anyhow, we see you for what you are. I asked for redress and apology, and instead I get this: MORE DENIAL! So now an appeal is filed.

All I want from you guys is for you to face the truth about this and fix things. The sooner that happens, the sooner this is resolved.

__________________

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Never Again

Originally Posted by GeratTzedek

Nonsense. I quite specifically and carefully duplicated the exact conditions of Vis' posts, replacing the Talmudic quotes with quotes of scripture, and you guys pulled them off within a couple hours on the grounds that they were disruptive behavior. You all COULD have stated that Vis' thread was disruptive behavior as well, but NOooooooo.

Your double standard has been scientifically tested and exposed--I am shocked that not one of you realized the test when you saw it. Anyhow, we see you for what you are. I asked for redress and apology, and instead I get this: MORE DENIAL! So now an appeal is filed.

All I want from you guys is for you to face the truth about this and fix things. The sooner that happens, the sooner this is resolved.

You did an excellent rebuttal to Vis's post, which I commented on, which Hentenza linked in a post in the OP of this thread. That is what we expect. Did I pull it? Did I tell you you couldn't do it? No, I told you that that is exactly what we want you to do. You have been told what you can do, where you can do it, and what the purpose of a debate forum is. Just go do it!

__________________
You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure.